Author: Alan McCracken
Date: 08:11:57 01/16/05
Go up one level in this thread
On January 16, 2005 at 08:47:50, Mike Hood wrote: >On January 16, 2005 at 05:43:30, Alan McCracken wrote: > >>On January 16, 2005 at 05:16:40, Mike Hood wrote: >> >>>On January 16, 2005 at 04:46:31, Alan McCracken wrote: >>> >>>>On January 16, 2005 at 04:21:27, Madhavan wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 16, 2005 at 03:16:27, Bruce Moreland wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>To solve a game is to prove the result with best play for both sides. It's a >>>>>>term with precise meaning. >>>>>> >>>>>>Tic tac toe is solved (it's a draw). Connect Four is solved (it's a win for the >>>>>>first player). Chess and Checkers are not solved. It is theoretically possible >>>>>>to solve chess, you'd just have to do a very vey deep alpha-beta search. It is >>>>>>not possible to consider doing this now, and probably won't be for the >>>>>>foreseeable future. >>>>>> >>>>>>So what we are left to discuss is strength in practical play, which has nothing >>>>>>to do with solving chess. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>playing the best move for both sides?what are you talking about? >>>>>how can you determine which one is the best move to select? >>>>>by running an infinite analysis and making a move?i would suggest you to play >>>>>some correspondance chess over the net >>>>>making the best move that can be made for both white and black may not end in >>>>>draw,in some cases white will have advantage over black >>>>>can you please post the game that has no slight errors on both sides >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>bruce >>>> >>>>If both White and Black choose "Best Moves" to _ALL_ moves, then the game will >>>>end in a draw. However, if either White or Black play into a "Book" line which >>>>either side may have inferior moves, then the result isn't proof that that the >>>>game is _NOT_ a draw! White will win with the better lines or Black will win >>>>with the better lines...it depends which side took the _Inferior_ route. IE >>>>whoever makes a less than "Best Move" or at least "Best Move" relative to a >>>>given opening and assuming the rest are "Best Moves" the side that made less >>>>than the "Optimum" move will run the risk of lost. It's that simple. >>>> >>>>Best Moves _will_ result in a draw, no waffling. >>>> >>>>IGM;-) >>> >>>You can't prove your claim that playing the best moves for both sides will >>>result in a draw. Not yet, anyway. In order to prove or disprove your statement >>>chess has to be solved, which is many years away. In every given position with 5 >>>pieces on the board, playing the best move will either lead to a draw, a win for >>>white or a win for black. What will the result be of playing the best moves for >>>32 pieces in the starting position? The material is equal, the positions are >>>equal, but it's still not necessarily a draw. >> >>You don't have to solve chess to know it's a balanced position, and if kept >>balanced has to end in a draw...how can it be otherwise? >> >>The first move may be worth 20-40 rating points at best, this is not enough for >>White to FORCE a Win...and there is no way in hell Black has a forced win when >>he's down a tempo. (The 20-40 rtg. pts.) >> >>It *IS* a DRAW! >> >>I'm a very experienced chess player and have understood for a long time, niether >>side can force a win, mistakes must be made however slight. >> >>This is a FACT. >> >>Also chess has been demonstrated mathmatically to the best of my knowledge that >>it's a draw. >> >>I'm sorry I don't have the source. >> >>But a draw it is, and if you were a master, you would know I'm correct. >> >>Look at the board at intial setup...it's clear through logical intuition and >>induction it's a draw. >> >>Have fun refuting what appears to be an abstuse axiom to you gents who want to >>disagree with logic. People who think the "Perfect" game "Must" be played to >>prove the obvious. >> >>After 25 years, I know chess is perfect, and a draw is the only logical result. >> >>Yes...the game is a perfect balance at the beginning of a game and chess will >>remain a balance if the "Perfect Moves" are found by both sides. >> >>Chess is Tic-Tac-Toe, if you know the answers...but even as imperfect players >>this is still quite evident. >> >>I'll be proven to be correct in less than 50 years...like Einstein!;-) > >You probably are right, Alan, but I still deny that it's a certainty. If I owned >a betting shop I'd offer 20-1 odds that when chess has been solved the original >poition will be a draw. I my not be able to show such a formula, which demostrates chess is a draw, but I think youl'd be making a smart bet, that it is. Still, the point I'm stressing is, chess need not be solved to know this answer:)
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