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Subject: Re: Test position Can you guys please try & understand?

Author: chandler yergin

Date: 15:12:50 01/18/05

Go up one level in this thread


On January 18, 2005 at 11:19:54, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On January 18, 2005 at 09:54:50, chandler yergin wrote:
>
>>On January 17, 2005 at 22:05:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On January 17, 2005 at 21:15:45, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>
>>>>New game,
>>>>[D]8/8/5k1p/2b5/P6p/8/4K3/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Fritz 7:
>>>>
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.Kg3 Bg1 3.Kxh3 Kg7 4.Kg2 Kf8 5.Kh1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9/13   00:00:02  122kN
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.Kg3 Bb6 3.Kxh3 Bd8 4.Kg2 Ba5 5.Kh1 h5 6.Kh2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 10/14   00:00:03  218kN
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 11/16   00:00:06  475kN
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2 h3 7.Kh1
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 12/18   00:00:07  794kN, tb=1
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2 h5 7.Kh1
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 13/19   00:00:08  1503kN, tb=2
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2 Kh5 7.Kh1 h3 8.Kh2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 14/20   00:00:09  2277kN, tb=5
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2 Kh5 7.Kh1 h3 8.Kh2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 15/22   00:00:10  3495kN, tb=11
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg2 Kf4 3.Kh1 Kg3 4.a5 Ba7 5.a6 Kg4 6.Kh2 Kh5 7.Kh1 Kg6 8.Kh2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 16/23   00:00:13  5728kN, tb=32
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.a5 Kd5 3.Kg2
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 17/26   00:00:23  10298kN, tb=147
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.a5 Kd5 3.Kg2 Kd6 4.Kh1 Bf2 5.Kh2 Be3 6.Kh1
>>>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 18/28   00:00:31  14771kN, tb=388
>>>>1.Kf3--
>>>>  ³  (-0.50)   Depth: 19/28   00:00:40  20374kN, tb=768
>>>>1.Kf3
>>>>  ³  (-0.50)   Depth: 19/31   00:00:42  21335kN, tb=877
>>>>1.Kf3 Kg5 2.a5 Bf8 3.a6 Bc5 4.Kg2 Kg4 5.Kh1 Kf3 6.Kh2
>>>>  ³  (-0.28)   Depth: 20/32   00:00:54  27474kN, tb=1684
>>>>1.Kf3--
>>>>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 21/30   00:01:00  31781kN, tb=2186
>>>>1.Kf3 Kg5 2.a5 Bd6 3.a6 Bb8 4.Kg2 Kg4 5.Kf2 Kh3 6.Kg1 Kg3 7.Kh1
>>>>  -+  (-1.87)   Depth: 21/38   00:01:34  59556kN, tb=4182
>>>>1.Kf3--
>>>>  -+  (-2.16)   Depth: 22/29   00:01:45  67265kN, tb=4852
>>>>1.Kf3 Kg5 2.a5 Bd6 3.a6 Bb8 4.Kg2 Kg4 5.Kf2 Kh3 6.Kg1 Kg3 7.Kh1
>>>>  -+  (-4.37)   Depth: 22/42   00:13:33  822286kN, tb=48925
>>>>1.Kf3 Ke5 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.a5 Kd5 4.Kh3 Bg3 5.Kg2
>>>>  -+  (-4.37)   Depth: 23/41   00:15:59  882429kN, tb=62642
>>>>1.Kf3--
>>>>  -+  (-4.66)   Depth: 24/41   00:17:01  904928kN, tb=72531
>>>>
>>>>(,  17.01.2005)
>>>>
>>>>The longer it runs.. the deeper the Hole.
>>>>
>>>>You don't think this is a Programming problem?
>>>>
>>>>It should be acceptable?
>>>
>>>Do you think Crafty can beat fritz in a match?  I don't.  So apparently that
>>>missing piece of code is not _that_ critical...
>>
>>
>>IT IS CRITICAL!
>>When I or any other PLAYER spend $$$$$$$$$ for a TOP Program,
>>we expect a TOP Program, NOT A PATZER, DUMBASS Program!
>>
>>What it does against you & Crafty in a Match is irrelevant!
>>Totally irrelevant!
>>Get it?
>
>I don't believe you "get anything" at all.  I'll bet any amount of money that
>that "patzer" program fritz can run you right off the chessboard.  I'll further
>bet that you won't begin to understand most of its moves when it does this...
>


The ONLY reason that COMPUTERS can Beat 99.9 % of Humans, is that 99.9 % of
Humans are NOT 2600 ELO!

Computers do NOT have A-N-Y Intelligence!

Get that through your little head!

I understand 99 % or more of what your little friggin Engines do than you do!

Yeah.. Fritz can run me off the Board.... I'm only 2300+ Strength.
Under 2400 ELO I LOSE!

I have a couple of Draws with Fritz at 3 0 Games!

What does that tell you?

I don't put up with any Crap!
 Ask ED , the Rebel guy!

Ask Peter Berger, ask Uri, they KNOW some of my History, and my Chess
Record!



>So maybe it isn't a "patzer".  GM players certainly have holes in their skill
>set for playing chess...

Yeah, I have played MANY of them!

IN a simultaneous Exibition in Dec. 1970 in Paris, France, Kortchnoi,
asked me for a draw on move 43, when he was three passed pawns down.!

>
>Now about my question about that Canadian weather??

Canada?    Dry!?


I like Sprite better!


>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>New game,
>>>>8/8/5k1p/2b5/P6p/8/4K3/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Crafty 19.01:
>>>>
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 1/2   00:00:00
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3/3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 3/3   00:00:00
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 4/4   00:00:00
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kh5
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 5/6   00:00:00
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 6/7   00:00:00  7kN, tb=20
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Ke4
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 7/9   00:00:00  20kN, tb=20
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 8/11   00:00:01  54kN, tb=144
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9/12   00:00:01  121kN, tb=148
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2 Kf5
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 10/14   00:00:03  263kN, tb=1198
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2 Kf5 6.Kxh2
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 11/15   00:00:03  512kN, tb=1367
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2 Kf5 6.Kxh2 Be1
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12/16   00:00:06  994kN, tb=4166
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2 Kf5 6.Kxh2 Be1 7.Kh3
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 13/18   00:00:07  1807kN, tb=4895
>>>>1.Kf3 Bg1 2.Kg4 Bf2 3.Kf4 h3 4.Kf3 h2 5.Kg2 Kf5 6.Kxh2 Be1 7.Kh3 Kf4
>>>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 14/19   00:00:13  3260kN, tb=11625
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 15/21   00:00:19  5951kN, tb=14663
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 16/23   00:00:33  9778kN, tb=26373
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 17/24   00:00:40  14013kN, tb=28902
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 18/26   00:00:59  19469kN, tb=42875
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 19/28   00:01:21  26642kN, tb=48825
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 20/29   00:02:01  35635kN, tb=72860
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 21/31   00:02:38  48310kN, tb=92749
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 22/33   00:04:19  68528kN, tb=157560
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 23/34   00:06:30  103536kN, tb=222182
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 24/36   00:13:16  188493kN, tb=428758
>>>>1.Kf3 h3 2.a5 Ke5 3.a6 h2 4.Kg2 Kf4 5.Kxh2 Kf3 6.Kh3 Bg1 7.a7 Bxa7
>>>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 25/39   00:26:49  550024kN, tb=711610
>>>>
>>>>(,  17.01.2005)
>>>>
>>>>Congrats Robert, Crafty doesn't have the BUG!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>New game,
>>>>[D]r2qk2r/ppp1b1pp/2n1p3/3pP1n1/3P2b1/2PB1NN1/PP4PP/R1BQK2R w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>Analysis by Shredder 8:
>>>>
>>>>1. ± (0.79): 1.h3 Bxf3 2.gxf3 Nf7 3.f4 g6 4.Be3 Kd7 5.Kd2 Bh4 6.Ne2 Qe7 7.Qb3
>>>>Raf8 8.Raf1 Kc8
>>>>2. ² (0.37): 1.h4 Nxf3+ 2.gxf3 Bxh4 3.fxg4 Bxg3+ 4.Kd2 Bh4 5.Kc2 Kd7 6.Qe2 Qe7
>>>>7.g5 Bxg5 8.Bxg5 Qxg5 9.Rag1 Qe7
>>>>3. ² (0.56): 1.Qe2 Kd7 2.h3 Bxf3 3.gxf3 Nf7 4.Kd1 g6 5.Kc2 Bh4 6.Qg2 Qe7 7.Bf4
>>>>Raf8 8.Rag1 Kc8 9.Kb1
>>>>4. ² (0.45): 1.Be3 Rf8 2.Be2 Nxf3+ 3.gxf3 Bh3 4.Qd3 g6 5.Kd2 Bg2 6.Rhg1 Bxf3
>>>>5. ² (0.39): 1.Rf1 Kd7 2.Be3 Nxf3+ 3.gxf3 Bh3 4.Rf2 Kc8 5.Kd2 Na5 6.Qa4 c5 7.Rd1
>>>>Qc7 8.Ne2 cxd4 9.cxd4 Bh4
>>>>
>>>>(,  17.01.2005)
>>>>
>>>>In this position, the Program has determined there are 43 Possible moves for
>>>>White.
>>>>
>>>>It is a "Non-Forcing" Position, therefore, the ‘weighted' Static Positional
>>>>Programmed Values come into play.
>>>>These are based on Mobility, Space, King Safety, Pawn Position, strong & weak
>>>>Squares etc..
>>>>These ‘weighted' values are shown after the Decimal Point.
>>>>The Significant Digit is the 1st one! It shows 0.xx telling you it is a Balanced
>>>>position, with no material advantage  for either side.
>>>>
>>>>From these 43 possible moves, the Program will search each move in turn, one Ply
>>>>deeper each iteration.
>>>>Using Multiple Lines... we get a peek into what the Program is seeing, and how
>>>>it evaluates what it considers to be the ‘Best" 5 moves, based on the weighted
>>>>static positional values.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It has searched all 43 moves to about 15 Ply almost immediately.
>>>>As it goes one Ply deeper, in turn for all 43 moves.. the search depth, for the
>>>>most promising moves.. i.e, the first 5 goes as deep as 40 Ply.
>>>>With each iteration, searching all 43 moves to 16 ply, 17ply, 18 ply etc..
>>>>It searches the most promising moves a bit deeper also.
>>>>
>>>>After searching all 43 moves to a depth of 19 Ply, and the most promising moves
>>>>to 46 ply, it still has not found any Material advantage for either side.
>>>>
>>>>Now.. At the beginning, we can set how many plys we want to see, for these 5 or
>>>>4 or 3 most promising Lines.  Eight or Nine moves deep  for each Line is
>>>>reasonable, and that's what we show.  Our Choice.
>>>>
>>>>Each Engine will evaluate the weighted "Static Positional Values" differently,
>>>>depending on how they are programmed.
>>>>
>>>>Crafty, may put more emphasis on Pawn Structure, while another may consider,
>>>>King Safety more important.
>>>>More aggressive programs like Fritz may rate ‘Space" as being more important,
>>>>and show a 0.85 or higher...
>>>>
>>>>What is so hard to understand here?



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