Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Fafis out of CCT7 :-|

Author: Mridul Muralidharan

Date: 17:38:22 02/12/05

Go up one level in this thread


On February 12, 2005 at 17:30:49, Rafael Peña wrote:

>Hello!
>
>After seeing the official resul vs crafty, i've decided take out my program from
>CCT7.
>
>here are my reason:
>
>1.- The game vs crafty, both engines says draw (look the position, and score
>from crafty and fafis).
>2.- Crafty offer several times draw to Fafis.
>3.- Fafis accepted the draw and i Communicated to the chanel 64 on ICC.
>4.- Arena (debug window) and Fafis put in their log draw by mutual agrement.
>5.- 10 min later , TD says that Fafis lost on time.
>
>Is a good tourney and excellent organitation, but i'm not agree with this
>choice, i lost the game vs zappa because i have not internet conetion at home,
>so is my fault, but i don't see why the game is lose by fafis vs crafty, i think
>the tourney it's for fun or somebody is going to win money?.
>
>I'm not sure is if Arena bug or ICC bug as some people said, i think the
>decision is based on what happened (that is my 5 reasons), TD said that is based
>on ICC log.
>
>Some people said in a bad way that i'll be in a black list for leave the
>tourney, i think, i said in a very polite way to td that i was leaving out the
>tourney, and i made appologies to all people in cct7.
>
>I don't going said more about this, also i don't think aswers replies here, just
>i'm posting here with my reason.
>
>GL on CCT7.
>Rafael Peña
>Program. Fafis


Forgetting the namecalling in the thread's below , let us consider one thing.
However well you program - there will be bugs : that has become like an almost
accepted truth.
Now , bugs in search , eval - we cant help ...
Bugs which cause a crash (due to say a parameter not getting set) , n/w conn
aborting - we _allow_ : hence the 'n' number of reconnects , 'x' number of mins
per reconnect , etc.
Are they also not bugs ? Cant we not just arbitrarily say "Too bad , if you hit
your bug , you lose - your bug , your butt." , etc ?
Saying it is to be automated , and so you absolve all responsibility is pretty
much stupid .

Let me explain why :
We all know what great job Leo Dijksman , others are doing - do we really need a
tourny like CCT ? If Leo says everything has to be automated - I can understand
- he manages them himself ! Even then , I see that sometimes he decides matches
, etc if there is some mistake , etc (Great job Leo ! :) )
If everything is to be automated , then why have an event like CCT7 ? Wont these
tourny's not be enough ?
Ofcourse we do need them , since we need people and authors to get together ,
chat up , pass comments on innocent "Anzar" (which was cool , btw ;) ) , swap
ideas , etc.
It is also a social event in a "virtual" way :)
To "help" us in organising the event , we need to automate as much as possible !
So that we can have a good time together , so that everyone will not be manually
relaying moves , we can all look at each others games , evals ; bitch about life
and in general have a fun time even when your program is getting thrashed
senselessly.
Bottomline is , it is a fun event - serious , but fun.
The automation is a means to this end - not the end in itself !
So , if it is in the spirit of things to accept a draw - WHEN IT IS A DRAW ! and
was offered by crafty , accepted by Faffis , relayed WELL IN ADVANCE to 64 (time
wise) , when the intent and motives are not suspect when the draw was declared ,
then why this fuss ?
We are after all humans , and more importantly , programmers and program users.
We know how shit programs can be , and in this case, it looks like it was not
even the programmers fault , but arena's !
When we can , cant we not make life little easier for others ?
Do we need to shackle overselves in our own rules so that we make our life less
enjoyable ?
It is definitely required to obey the law , but in its spirit - need not
necessarily be in its letter.
I felt today , we were nitpicking to not give the draw ...
Nobody said the draw call was with bad motivations , nobody said it was not a
draw , crafty offered the draw.
Faffi's author might have done lot of wrongs :
a) Did not check if game was still going on.
b) Did not check if server status changed.
c) Did not spend the last 2 years or last 2 days checking up things properly in
ICC , read the rules , bylaws, constitution , the entire help manual's , etc.

But are they really that relevent to this case ? Vaguely - yes , would have
definitely helped him more , but is this really that bug a crime ?
Uri kept cribbing that SOS was not kibbing - is this violation of the rule ?
My program sometimes does not kib if a suddent move response for a ponderhit -
is this violation of the rule ?
Shouldn't these games also not be kicked out ?
But then we say , it is in the spirit ,etc , etc.
Wont this entire issue not fit in the same mould in a more general sense ?
I for one , definitely felt that it could be overlooked this and avoided such a
sorry incident ....
Until then cct7 was running surprisingly well and smack on schedule !

Ofcourse , leaving tourny was a hotheaded decision - something I cant agree with
, but definitely something I would have done too IF I was in the authors
position.

Now that the decision is made and the mess created , we can discuss it (note
"discuss" :) ) , learn from it and avoid such sorry incidents in future !


My 2 cents.
Mridul

PS :
Unilateral decisions are never good.
I liked the basic idea of the seeding , but ... :)



This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.