Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 08:15:19 02/15/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 14, 2005 at 18:57:07, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
I feel Merlino underrates book because they never show up at world
championships.
>On February 14, 2005 at 17:03:52, John Merlino wrote:
>
>>On February 14, 2005 at 15:57:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>
>>>On February 14, 2005 at 11:40:12, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:56:24, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:33:12, Jon Dart wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>A few notes from Arasan's games in CCT7:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Game 1 against Homer, Arasan had Black in a QID that Schroer called
>>>>>>"a super high-class line, very theoretical". Arasan was in book until
>>>>>>move 18. It appears Homer misplayed the next few moves. Arasan's score
>>>>>>rapidly climbed and it won.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Arasan won easily against Alarm after it blundered here with .. Bxa3:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D] 3q1b1k/1p4pp/rn2rp2/BR2p3/p3N3/P2PP1P1/5P1P/1QR3K1 b - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Black is not in good shape already, but the pawn can't be taken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Arasan lost against Fafis. The opening was some unusual variant of the
>>>>>>Four Knights .. Arasan was out of book at move 7. Arasan's score
>>>>>>was positive until move 45. I haven't analyzed this yet so I am
>>>>>>not sure where it went wrong but it lost rapidly after that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This game against nullmover gave me some anxious moments. 7 .. Ne8
>>>>>>is unusual (..c6 is more common) and Arasan was out of book after
>>>>>>that. Black got what looked like a pretty scary k-side attack
>>>>>>in the KID. But Arasan defended - in fact its score was never
>>>>>>negative. Finally Arasan broke through on the q-side -- standard
>>>>>>play in the KID - and won. The nullmover author mentioned his program
>>>>>>had no passed pawn code and in general has a simple eval.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "?"]
>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "Arasan 9.0"]
>>>>>>[Black "nullmover"]
>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>[ECO "E87"]
>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2594"]
>>>>>>[BlackElo "2202"]
>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 Ne8
>>>>>>8. Qd2 f5 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Bd3 Na6 11. Nge2 Nb4 12. O-O f4 13. Bf2
>>>>>>Nxd3 14. Qxd3 Rf5 15. Ne4 Rh5 16. b4 Rh6 17. Rfe1 Rg6 18. Kh1 Nf6
>>>>>>19. N2c3 Nxe4 20. Nxe4 Bf5 21. Rg1 Kh8 22. a4 Qe7 23. c5 dxc5
>>>>>>24. bxc5 Rg8 25. d6 Qf7 26. Rad1 Rh6 27. Rge1 cxd6 28. cxd6 b6
>>>>>>29. Qd5 Be6 30. Qd2 Bf8 31. Qc3 Qg7 32. g4 Rh3 33. g5 Bg4 34. Rd3 Bf5
>>>>>>35. a5 Rh5 36. Rd5 Bxe4 37. Rxe5 Qf7 38. R5xe4+ Bg7 39. Qc6 Rxg5
>>>>>>40. Re8 Rg6 41. axb6 axb6 42. Bxb6 Qa2 43. Rxg8+ Kxg8 44. Re8+
>>>>>> 1-0 {nullmover resigns}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Against Pharaon, Arasan played a reasonable variant of the Slav and
>>>>>>was ok for a long time. Finally at this point Pharaon played Bh6:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D] q6k/3r1p2/p4Pp1/1pRn3p/3PQ3/P6P/1P1B4/6K1 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>and then posted the Bishop on g7. Neither Arasan nor Crafty would play
>>>>>>Bh6 at the tournament time level on the hardware I have, but Crafty
>>>>>>does eventually fail high on it, with a score of +1.7, so this may
>>>>>>have been the decisive move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wasn't watching for a while, but the next time I looked Pharaon was up
>>>>>>a Knight--not quite sure how that happened, but seems like it found a
>>>>>>nice tactic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Pharaon was strong even before its recent version update and now it
>>>>>>is really formidable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In the Chompster game, 37 .. a4 by Chompster was a bad mistake,
>>>>>>gifting Arasan with an outside passer:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[D] 2q1r1k1/5pp1/5bp1/p7/4PQ2/1Br5/P4RPP/5R1K b - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But the game got into a bishop of opposite colors ending and was
>>>>>>drawn. I actually made the draw manually, which brought a protest
>>>>>>from sfarrell: he is right that under the rules this should not
>>>>>>have been done without the TD's consent. It seems several programs
>>>>>>broke this rule in this round.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I was disappointed to lose the last game against cEng (witchess). It
>>>>>>had a very unusual opening:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "?"]
>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"]
>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "witchess"]
>>>>>>[Black "Arasan 9.0"]
>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>[ECO "C28"]
>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2397"]
>>>>>>[BlackElo "2594"]
>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4
>>>>>>7. Bxe4 Ne7 8. c3 f5 9. Bc2 e4 10. Ne5 Qd5 11. f4 exf3 12. Nxf3 Qe6+
>>>>>>13. Kf2 Qb6+ 14. d4 Be6 15. Ba4+ c6 16. Re1 Bd5 17. Bb3 O-O-O 18. Bg5
>>>>>>Qc7 19. Bxd5 cxd5 20. Qe2 Qb6 21. c4 Rd7 22. cxd5 Kb8 23. Qe5+ Ka8
>>>>>>24. d6 Rxd6 25. Bxe7 Bxe7 26. Qxe7 Rc8 27. Kg1 Rg8 28. Rac1 Rdd8
>>>>>> 1-0 {ArasanX resigns}
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I analyzed this overnight with Crafty but didn't find where Arasan
>>>>>>went wrong. I didn't like 7.. Ne7 and 7.. Bd6 seems to be better -
>>>>>>this has occurred in a few games with this line. After Ne7, Arasan
>>>>>>had its Bishop locked in and failed to develop it.
>>>>>
>>>>>I watched this game live and found it a very strong game from witchess.
>>>>>Especially because it plays without book. Let's be honest there. That's 700
>>>>>rating points (a real strong book).
>>>>
>>>>How did you get that estimate?
>>>>
>>>>Do you have one tournament when a program with no book performed 700 elo worse
>>>>than the same program with book?
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>Well.... I love that you continue missing the importance of the opening book. It
>>>will mean more easy points for your opponents!
>>>
>>>I have been reading your same "cantaleta" (*) for years and I have seen how
>>>Movei has been beated by books well tuned.
>>>
>>>Hopefully, you understand that in 20 years. Who knows......
>>>
>>>
>>>Arturo.
>>>
>>>(*) Cantaleta = a repetitive nonsense made for years without showing any proof
>>>on your behalf.
>>
>>I don't think that Uri is saying that a good book is unimportant. There's a BIG
>>gap between saying that books aren't important and saying that they're worth 700
>>points. What Vincent is saying is that if a top engine was playing without its
>>well-tuned book it couldn't beat a master -- and this is ludicrous.
>>
>
>Well, if you think that Uri´s posting are not ludicrous, we are alll entering in
>the absurd world of Uri. That is. It is a waste of time to repeat again and
>again in this Forum, that a book tuned for a specific engine is a bid advantage
>against other program or a GM.
>
>Examples: Peter Berger and his excellent work in the WCC2004. He was absolutly
>bright. Jeroen Noomen uses to prepare very tuned books for teh engines. Uri
>Blass underestimates almost everything but the time has showed who goes in the
>worng way.
>
>A well-tuned book is important and will be important although you underrate this
>reality. It is not important. It is good for the top engines and those engine
>that work hardly in this area.
>
>
>>Preparing for the CM vs Christiansen match two and a half years ago, I played a
>>bunch of games on ICC with The King on a relatively humble P4-2.4, just for fun,
>>without a book. It easily beat every human that it came up against. It even did
>>well against most engines including accounts running Ruffian and Crafty, and
>>even occasionally beat Chess Tiger.
>>
>
>This is not relevant because you played in ICC for fun, not for testing. Playing
>Blitz games against human is not a good way to test an engine. But you have your
>methods. What can I say?
>
>
>>The CM account's rating is now in the high 2700s, right around where Chompster
>>is. So, since Chompster tied for 8th in score in CCT7, if you give it another
>>700 rating points for having a good book, it will be in the high 3400s on ICC
>>and would easily have beaten any other engine in the CCT?? -- Uh, I don't think
>>so.
>>
>>Now, a good book is obviously better than no book, and I would be hard-pressed
>>to put a rating number on it. But 700 points is silly.
>
>
>Well, there is no balance in the Uri´s position. He just thinks that a book is a
>useless component. That is good because it will mean more point for the
>opponents. I am happy. It is the easiest point. :)
>
>a8a
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