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Subject: Re: Most brilliant novelty from cct7 Witchess-Arasan

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 08:32:36 02/15/05

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On February 15, 2005 at 11:11:45, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>>I don't think that Uri is saying that a good book is unimportant. There's a BIG
>>gap between saying that books aren't important and saying that they're worth 700
>>points. What Vincent is saying is that if a top engine was playing without its
>>well-tuned book it couldn't beat a master  -- and this is ludicrous.
>
>It is not.
>
>750 rating points is about rounded off the 100% chance.
>
>700 points means that if you join a world champs without a book you have 0%
>chance to win the title.

300 points are enough to have practically no chance to win a tournament
so even if shredder has no chance to win the title world championship without
book it means nothing.

I guess that shredder9 with no book could score more than 50% in the world
championship in israel.

>
>Even a year or 6 ago, I remember Marty Hirsch + Necchi estimating having an
>average book versus good book already at 300 points difference.
>
>I'm speaking about no book versus very good book.
>
>>Preparing for the CM vs Christiansen match two and a half years ago, I played a
>>bunch of games on ICC with The King on a relatively humble P4-2.4, just for fun,
>
>Blitz haha.
>
>Your proof is 0.
>
>Please show up without a book with chessmaster in a world champs and see how you
>will get CRUSHED.

John does not say that book has 0 value so I do not see your point.

>
>In fact chessmaster never shows up there. I bet the lack of a good book...
>
>>without a book. It easily beat every human that it came up against. It even did
>>well against most engines including accounts running Ruffian and Crafty, and
>>even occasionally beat Chess Tiger.
>>
>>The CM account's rating is now in the high 2700s, right around where Chompster
>>is. So, since Chompster tied for 8th in score in CCT7, if you give it another
>>700 rating points for having a good book, it will be in the high 3400s on ICC
>>and would easily have beaten any other engine in the CCT?? -- Uh, I don't think
>>so.
>
>You use online ratings. That is what i call online toying.
>
>If you play WITHOUT book online at standard, then people will at a certain point
>find how to win from your program and repeat that 5000 times until you give up
>and start using a book.

It may be the case with movei but not with shredder9 that has positional
learning.

I also think that it is not so easy with movei because the program may play
different because of different pondering time.

If I need to prepare for no book I can decide about some random number in my
evaluation and changing the value of bishop by 0.03 pawn may not change much the
playing strength of the program but may produce a different move.

>
>So please don't quote complete nonsense here.
>
>You are not even *near* to understanding how important it is to have a very good
>book versus no book.
>
>>Now, a good book is obviously better than no book, and I would be hard-pressed
>>to put a rating number on it. But 700 points is silly.
>
>about 1000 points online makes more sense as they will repeat the same line 100
>thousands of times, let alone in a world championship computerchess.
>
>If you lose second round, you lose the 4th too and the 6th and the 8th and so
>on.

You assume that the program is deterministic with no positional learning
Note that even with no positional learning it is not so simple because the
program may play different because of a different pondering time.

Uri



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