Author: Uri Blass
Date: 19:44:19 02/15/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 15, 2005 at 22:15:28, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >On February 15, 2005 at 14:15:47, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On February 15, 2005 at 14:09:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >> >>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:51:06, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:39:58, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:06:24, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 11:25:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 18:47:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 16:51:47, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 15:57:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 11:40:12, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:56:24, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:33:12, Jon Dart wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>A few notes from Arasan's games in CCT7: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Game 1 against Homer, Arasan had Black in a QID that Schroer called >>>>>>>>>>>>>"a super high-class line, very theoretical". Arasan was in book until >>>>>>>>>>>>>move 18. It appears Homer misplayed the next few moves. Arasan's score >>>>>>>>>>>>>rapidly climbed and it won. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan won easily against Alarm after it blundered here with .. Bxa3: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 3q1b1k/1p4pp/rn2rp2/BR2p3/p3N3/P2PP1P1/5P1P/1QR3K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Black is not in good shape already, but the pawn can't be taken. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan lost against Fafis. The opening was some unusual variant of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>Four Knights .. Arasan was out of book at move 7. Arasan's score >>>>>>>>>>>>>was positive until move 45. I haven't analyzed this yet so I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>not sure where it went wrong but it lost rapidly after that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>This game against nullmover gave me some anxious moments. 7 .. Ne8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>is unusual (..c6 is more common) and Arasan was out of book after >>>>>>>>>>>>>that. Black got what looked like a pretty scary k-side attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>in the KID. But Arasan defended - in fact its score was never >>>>>>>>>>>>>negative. Finally Arasan broke through on the q-side -- standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>play in the KID - and won. The nullmover author mentioned his program >>>>>>>>>>>>>had no passed pawn code and in general has a simple eval. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "Arasan 9.0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "nullmover"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "E87"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2594"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2202"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 Ne8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>8. Qd2 f5 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Bd3 Na6 11. Nge2 Nb4 12. O-O f4 13. Bf2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>Nxd3 14. Qxd3 Rf5 15. Ne4 Rh5 16. b4 Rh6 17. Rfe1 Rg6 18. Kh1 Nf6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>19. N2c3 Nxe4 20. Nxe4 Bf5 21. Rg1 Kh8 22. a4 Qe7 23. c5 dxc5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>24. bxc5 Rg8 25. d6 Qf7 26. Rad1 Rh6 27. Rge1 cxd6 28. cxd6 b6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>29. Qd5 Be6 30. Qd2 Bf8 31. Qc3 Qg7 32. g4 Rh3 33. g5 Bg4 34. Rd3 Bf5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>35. a5 Rh5 36. Rd5 Bxe4 37. Rxe5 Qf7 38. R5xe4+ Bg7 39. Qc6 Rxg5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>40. Re8 Rg6 41. axb6 axb6 42. Bxb6 Qa2 43. Rxg8+ Kxg8 44. Re8+ >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {nullmover resigns} >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Against Pharaon, Arasan played a reasonable variant of the Slav and >>>>>>>>>>>>>was ok for a long time. Finally at this point Pharaon played Bh6: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] q6k/3r1p2/p4Pp1/1pRn3p/3PQ3/P6P/1P1B4/6K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>and then posted the Bishop on g7. Neither Arasan nor Crafty would play >>>>>>>>>>>>>Bh6 at the tournament time level on the hardware I have, but Crafty >>>>>>>>>>>>>does eventually fail high on it, with a score of +1.7, so this may >>>>>>>>>>>>>have been the decisive move. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I wasn't watching for a while, but the next time I looked Pharaon was up >>>>>>>>>>>>>a Knight--not quite sure how that happened, but seems like it found a >>>>>>>>>>>>>nice tactic. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Pharaon was strong even before its recent version update and now it >>>>>>>>>>>>>is really formidable. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>In the Chompster game, 37 .. a4 by Chompster was a bad mistake, >>>>>>>>>>>>>gifting Arasan with an outside passer: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 2q1r1k1/5pp1/5bp1/p7/4PQ2/1Br5/P4RPP/5R1K b - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>But the game got into a bishop of opposite colors ending and was >>>>>>>>>>>>>drawn. I actually made the draw manually, which brought a protest >>>>>>>>>>>>>from sfarrell: he is right that under the rules this should not >>>>>>>>>>>>>have been done without the TD's consent. It seems several programs >>>>>>>>>>>>>broke this rule in this round. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I was disappointed to lose the last game against cEng (witchess). It >>>>>>>>>>>>>had a very unusual opening: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "witchess"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "Arasan 9.0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "C28"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2397"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2594"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>7. Bxe4 Ne7 8. c3 f5 9. Bc2 e4 10. Ne5 Qd5 11. f4 exf3 12. Nxf3 Qe6+ >>>>>>>>>>>>>13. Kf2 Qb6+ 14. d4 Be6 15. Ba4+ c6 16. Re1 Bd5 17. Bb3 O-O-O 18. Bg5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>Qc7 19. Bxd5 cxd5 20. Qe2 Qb6 21. c4 Rd7 22. cxd5 Kb8 23. Qe5+ Ka8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>24. d6 Rxd6 25. Bxe7 Bxe7 26. Qxe7 Rc8 27. Kg1 Rg8 28. Rac1 Rdd8 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {ArasanX resigns} >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I analyzed this overnight with Crafty but didn't find where Arasan >>>>>>>>>>>>>went wrong. I didn't like 7.. Ne7 and 7.. Bd6 seems to be better - >>>>>>>>>>>>>this has occurred in a few games with this line. After Ne7, Arasan >>>>>>>>>>>>>had its Bishop locked in and failed to develop it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I watched this game live and found it a very strong game from witchess. >>>>>>>>>>>>Especially because it plays without book. Let's be honest there. That's 700 >>>>>>>>>>>>rating points (a real strong book). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>How did you get that estimate? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Do you have one tournament when a program with no book performed 700 elo worse >>>>>>>>>>>than the same program with book? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Well.... I love that you continue missing the importance of the opening book. It >>>>>>>>>>will mean more easy points for your opponents! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I have been reading your same "cantaleta" (*) for years and I have seen how >>>>>>>>>>Movei has been beated by books well tuned. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hopefully, you understand that in 20 years. Who knows...... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Arturo. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Movei is weak relative to the top programs also when both programs use the same >>>>>>>>>external book so I do not see how the results of Movei prove something about the >>>>>>>>>importance of book. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Of course, the results doesnt prove anything because your book was a random >>>>>>>>thing combined with the Movei blunders caused what you know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You may be able to tune your book against movei's public book but if I come >>>>>>>>>to the tournament with new book you will not be able to plan openings that >>>>>>>>>moveidoes not understand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I did not tune the book against Movei.... I tune a book for a specific engine. >>>>>>>>Anthony accepted my help and I did my best in 2 short months. Of course, how >>>>>>>>could you understand that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Note that in the last tournament I used Dan Corbit's book in rounds 1-6 and got >>>>>>>>>4.5 out of 6, but after movei got out of book against averno >>>>>>>>>with 1.d4 Nf6 c4 e5 and got negative evaluation some moves later I decided that >>>>>>>>>I do not like Corbit's book and replaced the book by the public book(still small >>>>>>>>>book but at least movei is not out of book after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You continue missing what I have repeated you over the last 3 years. They are >>>>>>>>random books. They are not tuned hy hand. Anything can happen. Again, how could >>>>>>>>I explain you that? Three years in this forum and you repeat the same >>>>>>>>_cantaleta_ :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Maybe it was a mistake because Movei lost the last 3 games but I do not think >>>>>>>>>that part of the opponents tuned against Movei's public book(after all they >>>>>>>>>cannot know that I will use it and I do not think that it is so important for >>>>>>>>>them to win to waste many hours not only against movei's book but also against >>>>>>>>>book of other programs because movei has no special importance) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Movei lost by itself. No for any tuned book against Movei. Zappa outsearched >>>>>>>>Movei in tha game and played a better game. Movei made all kind of mistakes in >>>>>>>>that game. It was not any book just the Movei game. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Exactly, i saw Uri however blame the hardware of the opponent, who by the way >>>>>>>has lower clocked processors than Movei uses. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vincent >>>>>> >>>>>>hardware was one of the advantage of zappa in the meaning that >>>>>>zappa on movei's hardware is weaker. >>>>>> >>>>>>zappa is simply better than movei but I think that in the future I will never >>>>>>use the public book in these events. >>>>>> >>>>>>It is probably only bad luck but after replacing Dan Corbit's book by movei's >>>>>>public book before the game against zappa movei lost every game. >>>>>> >>>>>>Uri >>>>> >>>>>So you complain about book meanwhile saying book is not important? >>>> >>>>I will not use the public book only to prevent the possibility of preperation >>>>against it. >>>> >>>>It does not mean that I plan to spend a lot of time of building a better book >>>>for movei. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>Of course, dont spend that time. It will be new easy points for your opponents. >>> >>>Arturo.. >> >>Of course if I do not improve the engine it will be new easy points for the >>opponents. >> >>Uri > >You miss the point. You said that you dont plan to improve the book = Easy >points for your opponents :) You dont read carefully as always. I have no time to work manually on the book and at least in theory if I improve the engine enough there are going to be no easy points for the opponents. I think that the potential improvement from improving the engine is clearly bigger than the potential improvement from the book and I have no time for both things. Uri
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