Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 05:44:51 02/16/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 15, 2005 at 22:44:19, Uri Blass wrote:
>On February 15, 2005 at 22:15:28, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>
>>On February 15, 2005 at 14:15:47, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On February 15, 2005 at 14:09:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:51:06, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:39:58, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:06:24, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 11:25:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 18:47:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 16:51:47, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 15:57:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 11:40:12, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:56:24, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:33:12, Jon Dart wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A few notes from Arasan's games in CCT7:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Game 1 against Homer, Arasan had Black in a QID that Schroer called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"a super high-class line, very theoretical". Arasan was in book until
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>move 18. It appears Homer misplayed the next few moves. Arasan's score
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rapidly climbed and it won.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan won easily against Alarm after it blundered here with .. Bxa3:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 3q1b1k/1p4pp/rn2rp2/BR2p3/p3N3/P2PP1P1/5P1P/1QR3K1 b - - 0 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Black is not in good shape already, but the pawn can't be taken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan lost against Fafis. The opening was some unusual variant of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Four Knights .. Arasan was out of book at move 7. Arasan's score
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was positive until move 45. I haven't analyzed this yet so I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not sure where it went wrong but it lost rapidly after that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This game against nullmover gave me some anxious moments. 7 .. Ne8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is unusual (..c6 is more common) and Arasan was out of book after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that. Black got what looked like a pretty scary k-side attack
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the KID. But Arasan defended - in fact its score was never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>negative. Finally Arasan broke through on the q-side -- standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>play in the KID - and won. The nullmover author mentioned his program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had no passed pawn code and in general has a simple eval.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "Arasan 9.0"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "nullmover"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "E87"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2594"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2202"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 Ne8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8. Qd2 f5 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Bd3 Na6 11. Nge2 Nb4 12. O-O f4 13. Bf2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nxd3 14. Qxd3 Rf5 15. Ne4 Rh5 16. b4 Rh6 17. Rfe1 Rg6 18. Kh1 Nf6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>19. N2c3 Nxe4 20. Nxe4 Bf5 21. Rg1 Kh8 22. a4 Qe7 23. c5 dxc5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>24. bxc5 Rg8 25. d6 Qf7 26. Rad1 Rh6 27. Rge1 cxd6 28. cxd6 b6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>29. Qd5 Be6 30. Qd2 Bf8 31. Qc3 Qg7 32. g4 Rh3 33. g5 Bg4 34. Rd3 Bf5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>35. a5 Rh5 36. Rd5 Bxe4 37. Rxe5 Qf7 38. R5xe4+ Bg7 39. Qc6 Rxg5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>40. Re8 Rg6 41. axb6 axb6 42. Bxb6 Qa2 43. Rxg8+ Kxg8 44. Re8+
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {nullmover resigns}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Against Pharaon, Arasan played a reasonable variant of the Slav and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was ok for a long time. Finally at this point Pharaon played Bh6:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] q6k/3r1p2/p4Pp1/1pRn3p/3PQ3/P6P/1P1B4/6K1 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and then posted the Bishop on g7. Neither Arasan nor Crafty would play
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bh6 at the tournament time level on the hardware I have, but Crafty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>does eventually fail high on it, with a score of +1.7, so this may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been the decisive move.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I wasn't watching for a while, but the next time I looked Pharaon was up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a Knight--not quite sure how that happened, but seems like it found a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nice tactic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pharaon was strong even before its recent version update and now it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is really formidable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In the Chompster game, 37 .. a4 by Chompster was a bad mistake,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gifting Arasan with an outside passer:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 2q1r1k1/5pp1/5bp1/p7/4PQ2/1Br5/P4RPP/5R1K b - - 0 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But the game got into a bishop of opposite colors ending and was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>drawn. I actually made the draw manually, which brought a protest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from sfarrell: he is right that under the rules this should not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been done without the TD's consent. It seems several programs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>broke this rule in this round.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I was disappointed to lose the last game against cEng (witchess). It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had a very unusual opening:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "witchess"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "Arasan 9.0"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "C28"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2397"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2594"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7. Bxe4 Ne7 8. c3 f5 9. Bc2 e4 10. Ne5 Qd5 11. f4 exf3 12. Nxf3 Qe6+
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>13. Kf2 Qb6+ 14. d4 Be6 15. Ba4+ c6 16. Re1 Bd5 17. Bb3 O-O-O 18. Bg5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Qc7 19. Bxd5 cxd5 20. Qe2 Qb6 21. c4 Rd7 22. cxd5 Kb8 23. Qe5+ Ka8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>24. d6 Rxd6 25. Bxe7 Bxe7 26. Qxe7 Rc8 27. Kg1 Rg8 28. Rac1 Rdd8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {ArasanX resigns}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I analyzed this overnight with Crafty but didn't find where Arasan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>went wrong. I didn't like 7.. Ne7 and 7.. Bd6 seems to be better -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this has occurred in a few games with this line. After Ne7, Arasan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had its Bishop locked in and failed to develop it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I watched this game live and found it a very strong game from witchess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Especially because it plays without book. Let's be honest there. That's 700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>rating points (a real strong book).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>How did you get that estimate?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you have one tournament when a program with no book performed 700 elo worse
>>>>>>>>>>>>than the same program with book?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Well.... I love that you continue missing the importance of the opening book. It
>>>>>>>>>>>will mean more easy points for your opponents!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I have been reading your same "cantaleta" (*) for years and I have seen how
>>>>>>>>>>>Movei has been beated by books well tuned.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hopefully, you understand that in 20 years. Who knows......
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Arturo.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Movei is weak relative to the top programs also when both programs use the same
>>>>>>>>>>external book so I do not see how the results of Movei prove something about the
>>>>>>>>>>importance of book.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Of course, the results doesnt prove anything because your book was a random
>>>>>>>>>thing combined with the Movei blunders caused what you know.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>You may be able to tune your book against movei's public book but if I come
>>>>>>>>>>to the tournament with new book you will not be able to plan openings that
>>>>>>>>>>moveidoes not understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I did not tune the book against Movei.... I tune a book for a specific engine.
>>>>>>>>>Anthony accepted my help and I did my best in 2 short months. Of course, how
>>>>>>>>>could you understand that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Note that in the last tournament I used Dan Corbit's book in rounds 1-6 and got
>>>>>>>>>>4.5 out of 6, but after movei got out of book against averno
>>>>>>>>>>with 1.d4 Nf6 c4 e5 and got negative evaluation some moves later I decided that
>>>>>>>>>>I do not like Corbit's book and replaced the book by the public book(still small
>>>>>>>>>>book but at least movei is not out of book after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You continue missing what I have repeated you over the last 3 years. They are
>>>>>>>>>random books. They are not tuned hy hand. Anything can happen. Again, how could
>>>>>>>>>I explain you that? Three years in this forum and you repeat the same
>>>>>>>>>_cantaleta_ :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Maybe it was a mistake because Movei lost the last 3 games but I do not think
>>>>>>>>>>that part of the opponents tuned against Movei's public book(after all they
>>>>>>>>>>cannot know that I will use it and I do not think that it is so important for
>>>>>>>>>>them to win to waste many hours not only against movei's book but also against
>>>>>>>>>>book of other programs because movei has no special importance)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Movei lost by itself. No for any tuned book against Movei. Zappa outsearched
>>>>>>>>>Movei in tha game and played a better game. Movei made all kind of mistakes in
>>>>>>>>>that game. It was not any book just the Movei game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Exactly, i saw Uri however blame the hardware of the opponent, who by the way
>>>>>>>>has lower clocked processors than Movei uses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Vincent
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>hardware was one of the advantage of zappa in the meaning that
>>>>>>>zappa on movei's hardware is weaker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>zappa is simply better than movei but I think that in the future I will never
>>>>>>>use the public book in these events.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It is probably only bad luck but after replacing Dan Corbit's book by movei's
>>>>>>>public book before the game against zappa movei lost every game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So you complain about book meanwhile saying book is not important?
>>>>>
>>>>>I will not use the public book only to prevent the possibility of preperation
>>>>>against it.
>>>>>
>>>>>It does not mean that I plan to spend a lot of time of building a better book
>>>>>for movei.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>Of course, dont spend that time. It will be new easy points for your opponents.
>>>>
>>>>Arturo..
>>>
>>>Of course if I do not improve the engine it will be new easy points for the
>>>opponents.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>You miss the point. You said that you dont plan to improve the book = Easy
>>points for your opponents :) You dont read carefully as always.
>
>I have no time to work manually on the book and at least in theory if I improve
>the engine enough there are going to be no easy points for the opponents.
>
>I think that the potential improvement from improving the engine is clearly
>bigger than the potential improvement from the book and I have no time for both
>things.
>
>Uri
Well, then, dont say that a book is not essential or not important. If you dont
have time to do it, it is no reason to support your assumption about the book.
Arturo.
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