Author: Arturo Ochoa
Date: 05:44:51 02/16/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 15, 2005 at 22:44:19, Uri Blass wrote: >On February 15, 2005 at 22:15:28, Arturo Ochoa wrote: > >>On February 15, 2005 at 14:15:47, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On February 15, 2005 at 14:09:53, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>> >>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:51:06, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:39:58, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 12:06:24, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On February 15, 2005 at 11:25:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 18:47:22, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 16:51:47, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 15:57:16, Arturo Ochoa wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 11:40:12, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:56:24, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On February 14, 2005 at 10:33:12, Jon Dart wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>A few notes from Arasan's games in CCT7: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Game 1 against Homer, Arasan had Black in a QID that Schroer called >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"a super high-class line, very theoretical". Arasan was in book until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>move 18. It appears Homer misplayed the next few moves. Arasan's score >>>>>>>>>>>>>>rapidly climbed and it won. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan won easily against Alarm after it blundered here with .. Bxa3: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 3q1b1k/1p4pp/rn2rp2/BR2p3/p3N3/P2PP1P1/5P1P/1QR3K1 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Black is not in good shape already, but the pawn can't be taken. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Arasan lost against Fafis. The opening was some unusual variant of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Four Knights .. Arasan was out of book at move 7. Arasan's score >>>>>>>>>>>>>>was positive until move 45. I haven't analyzed this yet so I am >>>>>>>>>>>>>>not sure where it went wrong but it lost rapidly after that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>This game against nullmover gave me some anxious moments. 7 .. Ne8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>is unusual (..c6 is more common) and Arasan was out of book after >>>>>>>>>>>>>>that. Black got what looked like a pretty scary k-side attack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the KID. But Arasan defended - in fact its score was never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>negative. Finally Arasan broke through on the q-side -- standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>play in the KID - and won. The nullmover author mentioned his program >>>>>>>>>>>>>>had no passed pawn code and in general has a simple eval. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "Arasan 9.0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "nullmover"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "E87"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2594"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2202"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 Ne8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>8. Qd2 f5 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Bd3 Na6 11. Nge2 Nb4 12. O-O f4 13. Bf2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nxd3 14. Qxd3 Rf5 15. Ne4 Rh5 16. b4 Rh6 17. Rfe1 Rg6 18. Kh1 Nf6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>19. N2c3 Nxe4 20. Nxe4 Bf5 21. Rg1 Kh8 22. a4 Qe7 23. c5 dxc5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>24. bxc5 Rg8 25. d6 Qf7 26. Rad1 Rh6 27. Rge1 cxd6 28. cxd6 b6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>29. Qd5 Be6 30. Qd2 Bf8 31. Qc3 Qg7 32. g4 Rh3 33. g5 Bg4 34. Rd3 Bf5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>35. a5 Rh5 36. Rd5 Bxe4 37. Rxe5 Qf7 38. R5xe4+ Bg7 39. Qc6 Rxg5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>40. Re8 Rg6 41. axb6 axb6 42. Bxb6 Qa2 43. Rxg8+ Kxg8 44. Re8+ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {nullmover resigns} >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Against Pharaon, Arasan played a reasonable variant of the Slav and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>was ok for a long time. Finally at this point Pharaon played Bh6: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] q6k/3r1p2/p4Pp1/1pRn3p/3PQ3/P6P/1P1B4/6K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>and then posted the Bishop on g7. Neither Arasan nor Crafty would play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bh6 at the tournament time level on the hardware I have, but Crafty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>does eventually fail high on it, with a score of +1.7, so this may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been the decisive move. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I wasn't watching for a while, but the next time I looked Pharaon was up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>a Knight--not quite sure how that happened, but seems like it found a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>nice tactic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pharaon was strong even before its recent version update and now it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>is really formidable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>In the Chompster game, 37 .. a4 by Chompster was a bad mistake, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>gifting Arasan with an outside passer: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] 2q1r1k1/5pp1/5bp1/p7/4PQ2/1Br5/P4RPP/5R1K b - - 0 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But the game got into a bishop of opposite colors ending and was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>drawn. I actually made the draw manually, which brought a protest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>from sfarrell: he is right that under the rules this should not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>have been done without the TD's consent. It seems several programs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>broke this rule in this round. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I was disappointed to lose the last game against cEng (witchess). It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>had a very unusual opening: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Event "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Site "chessclub.com"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Date "2005.02.13"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Round "?"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[White "witchess"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Black "Arasan 9.0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[Result "1-0"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[ECO "C28"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[WhiteElo "2397"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[BlackElo "2594"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TimeControl "3000+3"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Bd3 dxe4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>7. Bxe4 Ne7 8. c3 f5 9. Bc2 e4 10. Ne5 Qd5 11. f4 exf3 12. Nxf3 Qe6+ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>13. Kf2 Qb6+ 14. d4 Be6 15. Ba4+ c6 16. Re1 Bd5 17. Bb3 O-O-O 18. Bg5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Qc7 19. Bxd5 cxd5 20. Qe2 Qb6 21. c4 Rd7 22. cxd5 Kb8 23. Qe5+ Ka8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>24. d6 Rxd6 25. Bxe7 Bxe7 26. Qxe7 Rc8 27. Kg1 Rg8 28. Rac1 Rdd8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1-0 {ArasanX resigns} >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I analyzed this overnight with Crafty but didn't find where Arasan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>went wrong. I didn't like 7.. Ne7 and 7.. Bd6 seems to be better - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>this has occurred in a few games with this line. After Ne7, Arasan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>had its Bishop locked in and failed to develop it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I watched this game live and found it a very strong game from witchess. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Especially because it plays without book. Let's be honest there. That's 700 >>>>>>>>>>>>>rating points (a real strong book). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>How did you get that estimate? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Do you have one tournament when a program with no book performed 700 elo worse >>>>>>>>>>>>than the same program with book? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Well.... I love that you continue missing the importance of the opening book. It >>>>>>>>>>>will mean more easy points for your opponents! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I have been reading your same "cantaleta" (*) for years and I have seen how >>>>>>>>>>>Movei has been beated by books well tuned. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hopefully, you understand that in 20 years. Who knows...... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Arturo. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Movei is weak relative to the top programs also when both programs use the same >>>>>>>>>>external book so I do not see how the results of Movei prove something about the >>>>>>>>>>importance of book. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Of course, the results doesnt prove anything because your book was a random >>>>>>>>>thing combined with the Movei blunders caused what you know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>You may be able to tune your book against movei's public book but if I come >>>>>>>>>>to the tournament with new book you will not be able to plan openings that >>>>>>>>>>moveidoes not understand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I did not tune the book against Movei.... I tune a book for a specific engine. >>>>>>>>>Anthony accepted my help and I did my best in 2 short months. Of course, how >>>>>>>>>could you understand that? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Note that in the last tournament I used Dan Corbit's book in rounds 1-6 and got >>>>>>>>>>4.5 out of 6, but after movei got out of book against averno >>>>>>>>>>with 1.d4 Nf6 c4 e5 and got negative evaluation some moves later I decided that >>>>>>>>>>I do not like Corbit's book and replaced the book by the public book(still small >>>>>>>>>>book but at least movei is not out of book after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>You continue missing what I have repeated you over the last 3 years. They are >>>>>>>>>random books. They are not tuned hy hand. Anything can happen. Again, how could >>>>>>>>>I explain you that? Three years in this forum and you repeat the same >>>>>>>>>_cantaleta_ :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Maybe it was a mistake because Movei lost the last 3 games but I do not think >>>>>>>>>>that part of the opponents tuned against Movei's public book(after all they >>>>>>>>>>cannot know that I will use it and I do not think that it is so important for >>>>>>>>>>them to win to waste many hours not only against movei's book but also against >>>>>>>>>>book of other programs because movei has no special importance) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Movei lost by itself. No for any tuned book against Movei. Zappa outsearched >>>>>>>>>Movei in tha game and played a better game. Movei made all kind of mistakes in >>>>>>>>>that game. It was not any book just the Movei game. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Exactly, i saw Uri however blame the hardware of the opponent, who by the way >>>>>>>>has lower clocked processors than Movei uses. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Vincent >>>>>>> >>>>>>>hardware was one of the advantage of zappa in the meaning that >>>>>>>zappa on movei's hardware is weaker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>zappa is simply better than movei but I think that in the future I will never >>>>>>>use the public book in these events. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It is probably only bad luck but after replacing Dan Corbit's book by movei's >>>>>>>public book before the game against zappa movei lost every game. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>>So you complain about book meanwhile saying book is not important? >>>>> >>>>>I will not use the public book only to prevent the possibility of preperation >>>>>against it. >>>>> >>>>>It does not mean that I plan to spend a lot of time of building a better book >>>>>for movei. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>Of course, dont spend that time. It will be new easy points for your opponents. >>>> >>>>Arturo.. >>> >>>Of course if I do not improve the engine it will be new easy points for the >>>opponents. >>> >>>Uri >> >>You miss the point. You said that you dont plan to improve the book = Easy >>points for your opponents :) You dont read carefully as always. > >I have no time to work manually on the book and at least in theory if I improve >the engine enough there are going to be no easy points for the opponents. > >I think that the potential improvement from improving the engine is clearly >bigger than the potential improvement from the book and I have no time for both >things. > >Uri Well, then, dont say that a book is not essential or not important. If you dont have time to do it, it is no reason to support your assumption about the book. Arturo.
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