Author: enrico carrisco
Date: 16:39:02 02/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 22, 2005 at 07:34:58, Uri Blass wrote: >On February 21, 2005 at 16:16:08, enrico carrisco wrote: > >>On February 21, 2005 at 10:19:47, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote: >> >>>On February 17, 2005 at 11:57:18, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>> >>>>On February 17, 2005 at 10:06:16, Peter Skinner wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 17, 2005 at 06:44:44, Tony Werten wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Please explain why you think that Shredder UCI is the one with the limited >>>>>>functionality ? >>>>>> >>>>>>Tony >>>>> >>>>>It's not the one with limited functionality. In fact your able to use it in more >>>>>interfaces. >>>>> >>>>>The problem is that you _don't_ get to use the proper book for it anywhere. >>>>> >>>>>With UCI it is supposed to be the "Universal" interface, yet the author of the >>>>>standard limits the usage in his own engine. I just don't get it. >>>> >>>>The UCI design clearly puts the interface in control of quite a few things. Book >>>>handling was one of them. By design UCI didn't provide for book usage outside >>>>the GUI. The *possibility* to do so with "ownbook" was added afterwards, as I >>>>understand it. There are some additional issues with learning that must be >>>>dealth with when you use ownbook. Most people never seem to have gotten that >>>>correct, and as a result there's now "ucinewgame". "Ownbook" has many more >>>>limitations related to the GUI interaction and is basically an ugly hack. >>>> >>>>If you want own book access outside the native GUI, you must duplicate all book >>>>code from the GUI into the engine. Or do all book handling natively, but then >>>>the GUI can't have a nice book editor and so on. Or put all book handling code >>>>in a DLL which both engine and GUI can access. >>>> >>>>Either solution is quite a bit of extra work. >>>> >>>>So please, stop asking yourself why Shredder, as the first UCI engine, doesn't >>>>support "ownbook". The protocol was never intended to support that concept in >>>>the first place. If it was, I'm sure the workings of it would be about 100000x >>>>better than they are now. >>>> >>>>-- >>>>GCP >>> >>> >>>Thanks Gian-Carlo, this is pretty much my point of view. Still I know that there >>>are many requests to use Shredder's book outside his GUI and I will try to find >>>a solution to this. >>> >>>Stefan >> >>Considering Sandro's book is already among the best -- perhaps reinventing the >>wheel on book learning at the engine level isn't necessary. > >I am not sure if I understand. > >When you say engine level you mean >"Shredder engine level" because I see nothing that can prevent movei to use >its own book under every interface and the same for most engines. No. While that was the previous topic of the posts, my response is meant in a more general nature. The topic applies to any UCI engine that does not currently use the "ownbook" function (i.e. access their own opening book outside of any GUI assistance.) > >The words "engine level" are confusing because I think automatically not only >about shredder but about many engines > It can be applied to Ford Motor Co. and Ferrari as well, but I feel its implied use was easily understood, so I didn't specify. > Maybe just making >>sure the same line isn't played repetitively to avoid possible book hole >>exploits will suffice. >> >>Alternatively, one could make a more narrow book for the "ownbook" usage and >>keep things simple. > >Again why you say one and not stefan. >if I understand correctly it is relevant only for shredder. > >I guess that I do not understand what all this discussion is about. The general idea of this forum, Uri, is thinking aloud. If I was specifically and only talking to Stefan, I would email him directly. Not all UCI engines currently access (any) opening books directly, they leave such tasks to the GUI. Hence, my message is simply "food for thought" for anyone looking to add direct book access to their engine (but aren't extremely excited about the task due to the complications of learning functions and other advanced book handling necessities.) The only comment that was Shredder specific was the compliment to Sandro for his bulletproof books for the Shredder family. -elc. P.S. Uri, if you keep this intense literal nature about you, I'm going to rename you Spock. :)
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