Author: Andrew Wagner
Date: 05:59:47 02/24/05
Go up one level in this thread
On February 23, 2005 at 16:33:46, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >I'm not sure how to explain this, so I am just going to fumble around and hope I >can get my point across without being an ass. I simply don't like operators at >big tournaments. Having thought for a while, my problem is that an operator >invests nothing compared to an author. > >Zappa contains roughly 13,000 lines of C++ code (not counting Eugene's stuff). >If I plug that into COCOMO (months = 2.4*KLOC^1.05), I get a development time of >3 years. At standard US Goverment contracting rates (60K/yr, multiplier 2.5) >that equates to $450,000. Any good chess engine will require a similar amount >of time, and I'm sure the amount of time I have spent on Zappa is dwarfed by the >amount Stefan works on Shredder. SOS, Diep, Fritz, Crafty, Shredder, Junior, >Hydra: all of them are the product of YEARS of work. Even "amateur" engines >like Gothmog or Amateur have a lot of man hours behind them. The same goes for >opening book creators. Necchi, Arturo, Kure, Alterman, and Noomen have all >worked on their books for years. So if Arturo & I show up at the WCCC this year >or the next, the total value of our entry is probably pushing $1M, and this >would be dwarfed by some of the other contestants. > >I say this not to brag about my accomplishments, but to show just how much work >it is to compete at high levels in computer chess. It is just like any other >sport; everyone knows that world class swimmers or tennis stars work on their >game every day. The only difference is that instead of getting to the gym for >squats and sprints we hang out at the computer lab improving our move ordering >:) > >An operator shortcuts all that by the simple expedient of purchasing a program >and opening book for 50$, which requires about 0.001% the effort of developing >it from scratch. This has several effects. First, they simply aren't "in the >club", and cannot reasonably expect to be. Secondly, they have none of the >knowledge gained from the years of work, which makes conversing with them much >less interesting. Third, people attach a lot of importance to things they spent >a lot of time on. If I win a tournament with Zappa I feel good about my effort, >if I win using a program I bought chessbase.com for 50$ I feel . . . not much. Up until here, I agree with you 100%. >If I participate with Zappa and lose to someone who bought Shredder for 50$, it >is only natural that I will resent that. > [snip] Personally, I think this is where you go wrong. If Zappa loses to Shredder, it loses to Shredder, not the zit-faced kid that bought it. You're losing to someone else who put in all the monstrous numbers of man-hours, too. I think if you take that perspective, it changes a lot. One other thing I will point out. Nobody is suggesting (to my knowledge) that these ideas be implemented as a replacement to CCC. Rather, this is being suggested as a supplement to CCC, another tournament. That said, I really really hope we get to see Zappa in such an event. I bet it'd take home a few commercial hides to pin on its wall.
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