Author: Don Dailey
Date: 20:48:02 01/31/99
Go up one level in this thread
On January 31, 1999 at 22:06:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 31, 1999 at 16:26:24, Don Dailey wrote: > >>On January 31, 1999 at 10:53:57, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 31, 1999 at 04:40:11, Kim Hvarre wrote: >>> >>>>On January 30, 1999 at 18:15:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 30, 1999 at 11:38:49, Kim Hvarre wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>No microcode in DB-2 at all... but it was certainly done with a 'silicon >>>>>compiler' so in a sense, there is some sort of 'program', but not in the form >>>>>you might think about normally... >>>> >>>>Isn't we around technicalities here;) >>>>The basics I think is the same - microcode or "chipcoding". >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>I have done that with crafty. But notice I said _match_ and not single >>>>>game? That makes a difference. Also matters _where_ the game is played. >>>>>IE was it just for fun, like many of the old Cray Blitz games were played? >>>>>or was it a _serious_ game with something at stake to make the GM play? >>>> >>>>Hmm., was Kasparov playing at a serious level. Don't think so. But as You know >>>>if You regularly play chess at money- or ELO-basis, it's always a matter that >>>>means something - not to mention if there's a risk of getting published in front >>>>of the world. >>>> >>>> >>>>>You simply don't understand. The DB team was every bit as good as any other >>>>>'team' in existance... and DB is the result of that team + time + money. Maybe >>>>>Ed or others _could_ have done something (none that I know of are hardware >>>>>designers which means it would be _very_ doubtful they'd have a chance). But >>>>>at best, _they_ would have come up with 'deep blue'. Doubtful it would have >>>>>been something "more"... >>>> >>>>Let's stop here. You - of all - knows there's differences between "teams" >>>>(Crafty = +2300, e.g. Rebel = +2400) and the claim that the _DB-team_ is the >>>>very superior, that the world at the time could establish is indeed rather >>>>naive. >>>> >>>>regards/kim >>> >>> >>>your statement above is _wrong_. You are making one assumption that is way >>>wrong. You said 'crafty =+2300, rebel=+2400' but you forgot one important >>>qualifier: 'on equal hardware'. *I* don't use 'equal hardware' and I'd be >>>willing to let you fire up a test match with crafty on my box to show you what >>>I mean. Or I can run it on our 16 processor SGI machine. That's the point >>>here. DB's 'hardware' isn't equal. And they spent a lot of time to make it >>>not equal, yet everyone overlooks that work and resorts to the lame idea of >>>'if the micros had their hardware....' That's not exactly fair, is it, when >>>they spent so much time to build that speed advantage, and suddenly to compare >>>with them we have to strip them of that advantage? >>> >>>So they are as good _or better_ and their work on hardware has put them several >>>levels out in front of everyone... >> >>The poll question was extremely ambiguious. They said something like, "if >>you could run it on equal hardware ..." I made the conservative assumption >>that you scale up the micro program, with no changes except adding memory >>and speed to equal Deep Blue's nodes per second. >> >>I say this comparison is conservative because you have pointed out that >>Deep Blue does so much more (because of the hardware) in the evaluation >>function. In other words, comparing nodes per second is pretty unfair >>to the MICRO programs if you are EQUALIZING hardware. If Deep Blue >>does 1000X more nodes per second than Rebel for instance and ALSO does >>100X more work for each evaluation call, then to equalize you have >>to give Rebel a pentium that is 100 thousand times faster! >> >>Bob, I once posted that you cannot compare these things and that any >>comparison is unfair and you blasted me for it. Now you are saying >>exactly the same thing and blasting someone else for taking your >>old point of view. You are not being fair to THEM. > >I hope I didn't "blast" anyone here. At least I didn't intend to do so. >So I'll apologize in advance if I did. > >But I have _always_ taken this position I believe... that if you match DB's >nps, you still need another 10x to make up for their hardware eval. I described >this back when I first reported that famous 10-0 match result... >If I 'blasted you' I also must have been in space warp somewhere, because I have >said that same thing probably 100 times in the last 2 years... you can _not_ >compare a program to DB, due to speed differences and hardware differences. So >my apologies to you as well... My apology for bringing it up again. >>Your current new point of view is in harmony with the way I feel >>about it. The only fair way to compare is to put them side by >>side and start playing chess. >> > >I hope this isn't "new" for me... I wrote a detailed explanation of why this >is true one post after the 10-0 result was reported, to explain that even though >Hsu slowed DB down to close to a micro's speed, it still was a long way from >fair because of all the free stuff they get in their hardware eval... >>- Don
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