Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 09:00:13 05/17/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 17, 2005 at 11:40:14, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On May 16, 2005 at 23:06:29, Darrel Briley wrote: > >The main problem by letting computers invent their own openings is that todays >programs without opening book still are utmost beginners. > >It is like a race car with bicycle tires. The idea behind this would be that >less resistance to the ground allows a higher speed of driving, as the car has >to do it itself, instead of let the slicks work for it. > >In theory it would be able to do 400 kilometers an hour still, but you slip at >every corner, most importantly the first one, and your starting position is real >bad as the start goes very slow thanks to lacking grip. > >A big effort has been done by Dann Corbitt a few years ago with his >Crappy Analysis Project. If i may recall the idea was that a book reinforced >with scores from chess engines at all nodes, would create a good book. > >If i remember well i was one of the few directly writing down here it was not >going to work. Several commercial authors also were a bit negative surprised >that it worked *that* bad. The project died a slow death. Silent, out of sight, >as the resulting book didn't kick butt. A killer book was never a goal of the CAP project. You can read the FAQ: ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/Chess%20Analysis%20Project%20FAQ.htm The CAP project is still going strong (in fact, it has never stopped). Convekta uses (and now creates) the CAP data. http://www.convekta.com/ >In short, there is big statistical evidence that every book, without human >intervention is sucking more than a book with human intervention. No argument there. >That said i hope you realize one shouldn't confuse this with book learning. Book >learning is very effective in that you can repeat your last win and can avoid >losing/drawing in the same manner. > >But trusting the computer on his own from the first move, is a kind of suicidal >thing to do. > >So to speak the computer is 1800 rated in opening, it's 2400 rated in >middlegame, it's 2200 in endgame and it's tactical 4000 rated. Of course never >making a tactical mistake soon lays the overall border to 2500-2600 when the >weak chain called opening is removed by using a book. > >>On May 16, 2005 at 21:28:21, Komputer Korner wrote: >> >>>Now that chess engines are rated equal to top GMs, why can't some chess >>>programmer write a script to enable a copy of his engine Ex: >>>Fritz,Shredder,Crafty to analyze every position (where there is more than 1 move >>>choice in the book) let us say for 2 minutes each starting at the beginning of >>>the book. Then it would automatically put in the numerical annotation in the >>>opening book. After a couple of months or so, X number of plies of opening moves >>>would be completely annotated(depending on the size of the book. Or better yet, >>>the openings could be split up and one computer each could be used on each >>>opening and then at the end they could be combined. I am assuming that the books >>>and combined master book would catch all transpositions like the ChessBase and >>>Bookup opening books do. Then the programmer or company could sell or give away >>>this annotated master book which the customer could change with new information. >>> Or has this already been done. I know that there are lots of small books that >>>have been done but what about God's opening book? >> >> >> >>I've been thinking for some time along similar lines. Why isn't the opening >>book treating in a similar fashion to the hash tables (I.E. the final book >>position annotated with the score, depth, result) and these annotations would >>not be discarded from game to game, but would be maintained and built upon, in >>this way it seems there could be continual improvement on the engine's book. At >>first only the final book position would/should be annotated, but in subsequent >>usage, additional moves/positions could be added to the book; one ply at a time. >>If such "book" parameters could be adjusted by the user so that an already seen >>position would only be analyzed if it did not meet a certain depth/result, I >>think it would be invaluable in improving a poor book, and could make an already >>strong book better. I realize this would entail a book becoming larger, but with >>today's storage soloutions this doesn't seem to be such a major consideration. >>Taken one step further... >> >>I'd like to build a PC that would be a dedicated chess computer, and ideally the >>program's book handling would operate as already mentioned, but in addition to >>this, idle time on the computer would be spent analyzing the book, and the games >>the machine has played. This could be focused by the user, or could operate >>fairly autonomously, at the discretion of said user through selectable menus. >> >>I'm not a programmer, so I'd appreciate any input/thoughts on the utility of >>such an approach. I realize that book learning already does some of this >>already, but the ability to add moves/positions to the book isn't currently a >>feature that I'm aware of in any program. Also, the ability to have the >>computer do analysis during idle hours, either automatically, or through a >>user's guidance (but still largely automated, so as to alleviate some of the >>tedious attention to detail required) would be a wonderful feature IMHO. >> >>It's not hard to envision other aspects of such a system. The engine would be >>continually tailoring the book to maximize its own strengths, and to minimize >>its weaknesses. Also, if the program had the capability to recognize unique >>opponents, and to keep a record of the opponent's openings and results, the book >>learning would be so much more effective. Any thoughts?
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