Author: chandler yergin
Date: 02:09:27 05/18/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 17, 2005 at 14:29:19, Robin Smith wrote: >On May 13, 2005 at 23:49:26, Komputer Korner wrote: > >"Komputer Korner", > >Your post is full of errors. See below for a point by point rebuttal. > >>On May 12, 2005 at 18:31:52, Dann Corbit wrote: >> >>>Bookups backsolving is basically a minimax algorithm + refutations. >>> >>>ChessAssistant does the same thing. >>> >>>It is a very good idea. >>> >>>IMO-YMMV. >>The following explanation will prove that I am the real KK. Compare my answer >>with logical opening theory articles and the 10 kommandments I did 5 years ago. >>The problem is that minimax is only useful to a computer. > >Wrong. Minimax is useful to anyone doing tree searching. Chess masters use >minimax all the time; they just don't call it that. Instead they say things like >"16.Re1 initially looked appealing, but then I saw the killer reply Bxh7+". In >essense this is a verbal description of either the masters thinking or the >minimax algorithm. > >>We humans have brains. > >Some of us do. :-) > >>All one has to do is put a chess engine to work at any node to get an >>evaluation. Usually the evaluation will be less than a pawn. If it is more than >>a pawn, then 99.9% of the time the line is busted for one of the sides. > >I am sure the number is far lower. Just play through some GM games. Many times >the evaluation will go above a pawn, even though the position is still drawn. >This is especially true in the endgame, but can occur at any phase. Chess >engines are not oracles. > >>If it is >>less than a pawn, then the decision for the White side is how much of a pawn >>advantage do you need before continuing with the line? The opening advantage is >>about .13 of a pawn. > >The precision of your proclomation is absurd. Are you sure it isn't .14 pawns? >Or how about .20 pawns? I have seen claims as high as .33 pawns. Here's a good example of a high Eval; but the popsition is a Draw. I think Robin would agree? [D]8/2p5/2B2k2/p4bp1/3P4/6K1/1P6/8 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 8: 1.Kf3 -+ (-1.63) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 3.b3 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 3.b3 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 3.b3 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 3.b3 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 -+ (-1.71) Depth: 6/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 -+ (-1.71) Depth: 6/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 -+ (-1.71) Depth: 6/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Bb7 Kd6 -+ (-1.71) Depth: 6/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Ke3 -+ (-1.71) Depth: 6/8 00:00:00 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.Ke3 Kd6 3.Bb7 Be6 4.Kf3 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 7/10 00:00:00 7kN, tb=3 1.Bb7 Be6 -+ (-1.84) Depth: 7/10 00:00:00 8kN, tb=3 1.Bb7 Be6 2.Kf3 Bc4 3.Be4 Ke6 4.Bb7 -+ (-1.73) Depth: 7/11 00:00:00 9kN, tb=3 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Kf2 g4 -+ (-1.89) Depth: 8/10 00:00:00 18kN, tb=5 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.d5+ Ke5 3.Bb7 -+ (-1.88) Depth: 8/11 00:00:00 19kN, tb=5 1.Kf3 Ke6 2.d5+ Ke5 3.Bb7 -+ (-1.88) Depth: 8/11 00:00:00 19kN, tb=5 1.Bd5 Bd3 2.Bc6 Be2 -+ (-1.87) Depth: 8/13 00:00:00 23kN, tb=6 1.Bd5 Ke7 2.Bg8 Kd6 3.Kf3 -+ (-1.87) Depth: 8/13 00:00:01 30kN, tb=8 1.Bd5 Ke7 2.Bb7 Be6 3.d5 Bf5 4.Kf3 Kd6 5.b3 -+ (-1.92) Depth: 9/15 00:00:02 39kN, tb=30 1.Bb7 Ke7 -+ (-1.91) Depth: 9/15 00:00:02 40kN, tb=30 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ba8 -+ (-1.89) Depth: 9/15 00:00:02 41kN, tb=30 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Bg2 Kd6 3.Kf2 g4 4.Bc6 -+ (-1.94) Depth: 10/14 00:00:02 59kN, tb=34 1.Kf2 Ke6 2.Bf3 Kd6 -+ (-1.93) Depth: 10/14 00:00:02 69kN, tb=34 1.Kf2 Ke6 2.Ba4 -+ (-1.93) Depth: 10/14 00:00:02 70kN, tb=34 1.Kf2 Ke7 2.Kg3 Kd6 3.Bg2 Bd7 4.Bf3 Bc6 5.Be2 Be4 6.Kg4 -+ (-1.98) Depth: 11/15 00:00:03 96kN, tb=37 1.Bb7 Ke7 -+ (-1.97) Depth: 11/15 00:00:03 98kN, tb=37 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.d5 -+ (-1.97) Depth: 11/15 00:00:03 99kN, tb=37 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Bh1 Kd6 3.Kf3 Be6 4.Kg2 -+ (-2.01) Depth: 12/16 00:00:03 133kN, tb=37 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Bh1 Kd6 3.Kf2 c6 4.Bg2 c5 5.dxc5+ Kxc5 6.Kg3 -+ (-2.02) Depth: 13/17 00:00:05 186kN, tb=66 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Be4 c5 5.Bg2 Bd5 6.dxc5+ Kxc5 7.Bh3 Kc4 8.Bf5 -+ (-2.02) Depth: 14/19 00:00:09 304kN, tb=214 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 c6 4.Ba6 Kd5 5.Be2 c5 6.Bf3+ Kc4 7.dxc5 Kxc5 8.b3 g4 9.Bb7 -+ (-2.05) Depth: 15/20 00:00:12 394kN, tb=294 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 c6 4.Ba6 Kd5 5.Be2 c5 6.Bf3+ Kc4 7.Be2+ Kb4 8.dxc5 Kxc5 9.Bf1 -+ (-2.05) Depth: 16/20 00:00:16 485kN, tb=424 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 c6 4.Ba6 Kd5 5.Bf1 c5 6.Bg2+ Kc4 7.Kf2 -+ (-2.05) Depth: 17/22 00:00:17 610kN, tb=537 1.Bb7 Ke7 2.Kf3 Kd6 3.Ke3 c6 4.Ba6 Kd5 5.Bf1 c5 6.Bg2+ Kc4 7.Bf1+ Kb4 -+ (-2.05) Depth: 18/23 00:00:19 745kN, tb=737 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 g4 4.Bg2 Ke6 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 18/27 00:00:26 1316kN, tb=2041 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Bg2 Bd5 5.Bh3 Bf7 6.Kf2 Kd5 7.Ke3 Be6 8.Kf2 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 18/27 00:00:26 1374kN, tb=2191 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Bg2 Bd5 5.Bh3 Bf7 6.Bg2 Be6 7.Be4 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 19/23 00:00:28 1709kN, tb=2918 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Bg2 Bd5 5.Bh3 Bf7 6.Bg2 Be6 7.Be4 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 20/21 00:00:32 2154kN, tb=3798 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 c5 4.dxc5+ Kxc5 5.Bd1 g4 6.Kf2 Be6 7.Kg3 Bd7 -+ (-2.05) Depth: 21/25 00:00:46 3829kN, tb=6642 1.Bf3 Ke6 2.Kf2 Kd6 3.Ke3 Be6 4.Bg2 c5 5.dxc5+ Kxc5 6.Be4 Kc4 7.Bc2 Bd5 8.Bd1 Bc6 9.Bc2 g4 10.Kf2 Bd5 -+ (-2.11) Depth: 22/27 00:01:01 5761kN, tb=11331 1.Kf2 Ke7 2.Ke3 Kd6 3.Ba4 Kd5 4.Bb3+ Kd6 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 22/27 00:01:13 8368kN, tb=14629 1.Kf2 Ke7 2.Ke3 Kd6 3.Ba4 Kd5 4.Bb3+ Kc6 5.Ba4+ Kd6 6.Bb3 g4 -+ (-2.07) Depth: 22/27 00:01:17 9523kN, tb=15214 1.Kf2 Ke6 2.Ke3 Bc2 3.Bh1 Kd6 4.Bg2 Bf5 5.Bb7 -+ (-2.11) Depth: 23/32 00:01:40 14597kN, tb=22579 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Be6 4.Bc2 g4+ 5.Kf4 c5 6.dxc5+ Kc6 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 23/36 00:01:55 16809kN, tb=26887 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bd7 4.Ke3 Bc6 5.Bc2 Ke6 6.Bb3+ Bd5 7.Bc2 Kd6 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 23/36 00:02:05 20186kN, tb=28735 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bd7 4.Ke3 Bc6 5.Bc2 Ke6 6.Bb3+ Bd5 7.Bc2 Kd6 8.Bd3 c5 9.dxc5+ Kxc5 10.Bf5 -+ (-2.04) Depth: 24/29 00:02:25 22732kN, tb=34910 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bd7 4.Ke3 Be6 5.Bc2 c5 6.dxc5+ Kxc5 -+ (-2.06) Depth: 25/45 00:03:38 29362kN, tb=52260 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bd7 4.Ke3 Be6 5.Bc2 c5 6.dxc5+ Kxc5 7.Kf2 Kc4 8.Kf3 Kd5 9.Ke3 Ke5 10.Kf3 Kd4 11.Ba4 Bf5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 26/47 00:05:31 37151kN, tb=76634 1.Ba4 Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bd7 4.Ke3 Be6 5.Bc2 c5 6.dxc5+ Kxc5 7.Kf2 Kc4 8.Kf3 Kb4 9.Kf2 Bb3 10.Be4 Kc5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 27/51 00:09:50 55810kN, tb=132033 (, 18.05.2005) PLaying the Best move 1.Ba4 we get this position: [D]8/2p5/5k2/p4bp1/B2P4/6K1/1P6/8 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 8: 1...c5 2.dxc5 Be4 3.Kf2 Ke6 4.Bb3+ Kf5 5.Kg3 Ke5 ³ (-0.26) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 10/10 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 11/11 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 12/12 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 15/15 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 15/15 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 15/15 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 16/16 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 18/18 00:00:01 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 19/19 00:00:01 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 20/20 00:00:03 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 21/21 00:00:05 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 22/22 00:00:07 1kN 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 23/23 00:00:09 2kN 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 24/24 00:00:11 3kN 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 25/25 00:00:11 12kN, tb=3 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd6 3.Kf3 Bc8 4.Kf2 Be6 5.Bc2 Bd7 6.Ke3 g4 7.Bb3 Be6 8.Ba4 Bd5 9.Kf4 c5 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 26/26 00:00:11 21kN, tb=6 1...Ke6 2.Bb3+ Kd7 3.Kf3 Kc6 4.Bc4 Bc8 5.Kf2 Kd6 6.Ke3 c5 7.dxc5+ Kd7 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 27/41 00:03:10 15345kN, tb=31979 (, 18.05.2005) Playing a few more moves of the best Line.. [D]2b5/2p5/2k5/p5p1/2BP4/4K3/1P6/8 b - - 0 5 Analysis by Shredder 8: 5...g4 6.Bb3 Be6 7.Bxe6 g3 8.Kf3 Kb5 -+ (-2.06) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 18/18 00:00:00 3kN 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 19/19 00:00:00 20kN, tb=21 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 20/24 00:00:06 373kN, tb=430 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 21/26 00:00:21 990kN, tb=1956 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 22/31 00:00:40 1818kN, tb=4590 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 23/31 00:01:06 2892kN, tb=7525 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 24/36 00:01:49 4950kN, tb=14050 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bh3 7.Kg3 Bd7 8.Kf3 Kd6 9.Bb3 Bh3 10.Kg3 Be6 11.Bc2 g4 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 25/38 00:05:18 27206kN, tb=53194 (, 18.05.2005) It's easy to see the PV Eval is based on static positional factors Programmed in. Does this high Eval mean Black has a Won Game? Certainly not. It's a Draw. New game, 2b5/2p5/2k5/p5p1/2BP4/4K3/1P6/8 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 8: 5...g4 6.Bb3 Be6 7.Bxe6 g3 8.Kf3 Kb5 -+ (-2.06) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 17/17 00:00:00 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 18/18 00:00:00 3kN 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 19/19 00:00:00 20kN, tb=21 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 20/24 00:00:06 373kN, tb=430 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 21/26 00:00:21 990kN, tb=1956 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 22/31 00:00:40 1818kN, tb=4590 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 7.Kf2 Kd6 8.Bb3 Kc6 9.Bc4 Kd6 10.Bb3 Kc6 11.Bc4 Kd6 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 23/31 00:01:06 2892kN, tb=7525 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bc8 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 24/36 00:01:49 4950kN, tb=14050 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bh3 7.Kg3 Bd7 8.Kf3 Kd6 9.Bb3 Bh3 10.Kg3 Be6 11.Bc2 g4 -+ (-2.08) Depth: 25/38 00:05:18 27206kN, tb=53194 5...Bf5 6.Kf3 Bh3 7.Bg8 Bd7 8.Bc4 Kd6 9.Bb3 Bh3 10.Kg3 Be6 11.Bc2 g4 -+ (-2.06) Depth: 26/38 00:18:26 45748kN, tb=106862 (, 18.05.2005) Still a Draw. > >>If any subsequent node has an evaluation of more than that >>then the line is worth persuing. > >It could be worth pursuing even if less than that. What if the line has 10 hard >to find "only moves" in a row, but if, and only if, those moves are found it >leads to dead equality. It might still be very well be worth pursuing. After >all, with perfect knowledge every positoin is either win, = or lose. There is no >position with .13 pawns advantage other than as a fuzzy and subjective measure >of a positions pratical chances. > ><snip> > >>We humans don't need a backsolving algorithm to tell us what lines to play. > >We might, if the opening repertoire we are trying to learn contains 1,000,000 >positions! And we enter a new novelty in a line full of transpositions that >completely changes the tree. I have seen chess books that give +/- to a certain >position, and then give -/+ to another position that white can force into the >+/- position. Needless to say, the book author was not using Bookup and its >backsolving function. Maybe he should have used it. > >>The >>only time when backsolving would be useful is if by pressing a button one could >> have a computer immediately tell us all the drawing lines if Chess is a draw >>and all the winning lines if Chess is a win. > >The only time? Or the only time _YOU_ can think of. I can think of many other >times. > >>Of course that will never happen. >>so in the meantime we all keep adjusting our repertoires with results from games >>and results from analysis (human or computer engine). So back to the first >>sentence. once you have a computer analyze a line(or if you do it yourself) if >>you simply put an evaluation against that node at move 12 why do you need >>backsolving to fill in all the subsequent nodes by backtracking back up the tree >>from move 30 back to move 12? > >You keep talking about a bushy, tangled tree (an opening database) as though it >were a linear rope. Chess openings transpose. They have numerous side branches. >When you make one change to the database, it does NOT affect only one line in >the database (unless you have a very small, simple database). > >>Isn't it much better to have the computer analyze >>the 12.Ng5 node and then put an evaluation against it than have the 30.Nxg6 node >>analyzed and then backsolve back up the tree to 12.Ng5?? What purpose does it >>serve to have all the individual nodes in one line attached with evaluations >>when those nodes are not really part of the opening? > >It doesn't matter one way or the other. What does matter is all the side >variations and transpositions. You can't just back up in only one line and get >the same result. > >>Openings are >>differentiated from the rest of the tree because they are lines that have been >>proven over the years under practice to be worth repeating. Anybody who thinks >>backsolving has merit is trying to treat chess as if it is one big opening >>puzzle with perfect information. > >No we aren't. We are trying to treat it as though this is the best information >we have _so far_. If new information comes along, then that gets added to the >tree, backsolved, and voila, we have the latest state of the art theory for that >opening. > >>Of course, openings cannot be solved with backsolving. > >No one says that they can. Only that it "solves" the opening to the best of our >knowledge _today_. This is _not_ the same as Ken Thompson solving 5 piece >endings, and no one is claiming that it is. > >>Even the name is wrong. Backsolving does not solve anything. > >Sure it does. It solves the minimax problem based on the data and assumptions >contained within the database. Of course if you mean completely and forever >solve chess, that is absurd. No one thinks that, no one claims that. > >>It >>merely attaches an evaluation to each node based on an evaluation far down the >>root of the tree. What use is that when there will be thousands of novelties >>subsequently found as side lines which will put that line out of business >>anyway. > >This is exactly what makes backsolving so powerful!! When new discoveries are >made, you add them to the tree, backsolve, and voila; you have the latest >opening theory completely up to date. > >>It is much better to analyze the 12.Ng5 node than to analyze the nodes >>at move 30. Even GMs who do deep opening analysis have first exhaustively >>analyzed the nodes at move 12,13,14,15,16,17,18... etc before they do the nodes >>at move 30. > >Of course. With Bookup and backsolving, as with any computer tool, garbage in = >garbage out. If you use the tool foolishly you will get foolish results. But >that is not the fault of the tool. > >>We will never have perfect information and the chess puzzle will >>never be completely solved. > >Of course. But so what. Backsolving was never intended to "completely solve" >chess. This is silly. > >>I would be very very surprised if any GM ever >>admitted to ever using the backsolving feature. > >I am a corespondence GM, and I have used it. > >>My expose of backsolving stands. > >You "expose" falls on its face. > >>It is simply a waste of bytes. > >For you I guess it would be a waste. I and others find it useful. > >-Robin > >P.S. I don't believe you are "Komputer Korner".
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