Author: chandler yergin
Date: 09:21:28 05/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 20, 2005 at 03:41:59, Terry McCracken wrote:
>On May 20, 2005 at 03:37:46, jefkaan wrote:
>
>>oops, small addition..:
>>
>>On May 20, 2005 at 03:31:01, jefkaan wrote:
>>
>>>with Moore's law, it might take only a few hundred
>>>years to solve chess.
>>
>>of course i mean chess+,
>>that is chess without the 50 move draw rule.
Then it is not chess!
Nor is Baseball a sport without the "3 Strikes and you're Out" Rule.
>>with that rule chess probably is a draw.
>>
>>unequal bishops and so on spoil the game.
>>
>>but without the 50 move rule there might be a connection
>>between 'best' opening lines and winning endgames
Why waste time on hypotheticals?
Play by the Rules & consider possibilites, only within those rules.
>>
>>not impossible; anyone who thinks differently
>>may challenge my opinion without throwing insults,
>>thx in advance
>>jef
>
>
>I already did, look above. IMO you have to disprove chess is a draw...too much
>evidence to the contrary.
Draws among the Top Players have increased.
Tournament organizers are taking action now to preclude this.
http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2399
Super GM Tournament
in Sofia
Six of the world's top players
clash in the M-Tel Masters
May 11 to 22, 2005
in the Grand Hotel Sofia, Bulgaria
The Mtel Masters Super Tournament is under way. It is a category 20 event with
an Elo average of 2744. The time controls are classic (up to seven hours per
game) and the tournament is a double round robin (every player plays every other
player twice). There is a special rule in place at this Super Tournament: draw
offers are not allowed, i.e. draws by mutual agreement between the players are
forbidden, only technical draws may be given by the arbiter.
I think we will more of these types of Tournaments.
As far as using Computer Programs for GM's to use for home analysis,
they have their limitations too.
A player is faced with an average of only about 35 legal moves to consider with
each turn.
Each move and its response is called a ply. The fastest chess programs like
Fritz, & Shredder look ahead seven or eight plies into the game at 100Kn's per
second, with interesting variations being searched to perhaps depth of 40 - 50
Ply.
The result is a densely proliferating tree of possibilities with the branches
and twigs representing all the different ways the game could unfold. Looking
ahead just seven plies (14 individual chess moves) requires examining 35 to the
14th power (more than a billion trillion) leaves representing all the various
outcomes.
As the computer tries to look deeper, the number of possibilities explodes.
Programmers have learned clever ways to "prune" the trees, so that all but a
fraction of the paths can be discarded without plumbing them all the way to the
bottom. Even so, a chess-playing computer looking ahead seven plies might
consider as many as 50 or 60 billion scenarios with each iteration.
Now consider a previous Post by Bruce, which confirms the above.
Posted by Bruce Moreland (Profile) on April 11, 2005 at 20:12:00:
In Reply to: Re: Chess It is already "solved" posted by chandler yergin on April
10, 2005 at 21:33:19:
To min-max chess using alpha-beta would require a horrific tree search.
Assuming the branching factor would be about six, and stipulating that the game
can be solved in 40 moves (80 plies), which is clearly a horrific
under-estimate, the game tree size is on the order of 10^62.
Even at a billion billion nodes per second, you could search for a billion
billion seconds, and you'd only be a billion billionth of the way to being a
billionth of the way done.
bruce
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