Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 13:08:38 05/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 20, 2005 at 12:21:28, chandler yergin wrote: >On May 20, 2005 at 03:41:59, Terry McCracken wrote: > >>On May 20, 2005 at 03:37:46, jefkaan wrote: >> >>>oops, small addition..: >>> >>>On May 20, 2005 at 03:31:01, jefkaan wrote: >>> >>>>with Moore's law, it might take only a few hundred >>>>years to solve chess. >>> >>>of course i mean chess+, >>>that is chess without the 50 move draw rule. > >Then it is not chess! >Nor is Baseball a sport without the "3 Strikes and you're Out" Rule. > > > > >>>with that rule chess probably is a draw. >>> >>>unequal bishops and so on spoil the game. >>> >>>but without the 50 move rule there might be a connection >>>between 'best' opening lines and winning endgames > > >Why waste time on hypotheticals? >Play by the Rules & consider possibilites, only within those rules. > > >>> >>>not impossible; anyone who thinks differently >>>may challenge my opinion without throwing insults, >>>thx in advance >>>jef >> >> >>I already did, look above. IMO you have to disprove chess is a draw...too much >>evidence to the contrary. > >Draws among the Top Players have increased. >Tournament organizers are taking action now to preclude this. > >http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2399 > >Super GM Tournament >in Sofia >Six of the world's top players >clash in the M-Tel Masters >May 11 to 22, 2005 >in the Grand Hotel Sofia, Bulgaria > >The Mtel Masters Super Tournament is under way. It is a category 20 event with >an Elo average of 2744. The time controls are classic (up to seven hours per >game) and the tournament is a double round robin (every player plays every other >player twice). There is a special rule in place at this Super Tournament: draw >offers are not allowed, i.e. draws by mutual agreement between the players are >forbidden, only technical draws may be given by the arbiter. > > I think we will more of these types of Tournaments. > > > As far as using Computer Programs for GM's to use for home analysis, >they have their limitations too. >A player is faced with an average of only about 35 legal moves to consider with >each turn. >Each move and its response is called a ply. The fastest chess programs like >Fritz, & Shredder look ahead seven or eight plies into the game at 100Kn's per >second, with interesting variations being searched to perhaps depth of 40 - 50 >Ply. > >The result is a densely proliferating tree of possibilities with the branches >and twigs representing all the different ways the game could unfold. Looking >ahead just seven plies (14 individual chess moves) requires examining 35 to the >14th power (more than a billion trillion) leaves representing all the various >outcomes. > >As the computer tries to look deeper, the number of possibilities explodes. >Programmers have learned clever ways to "prune" the trees, so that all but a >fraction of the paths can be discarded without plumbing them all the way to the >bottom. Even so, a chess-playing computer looking ahead seven plies might >consider as many as 50 or 60 billion scenarios with each iteration. > >Now consider a previous Post by Bruce, which confirms the above. > >Posted by Bruce Moreland (Profile) on April 11, 2005 at 20:12:00: >In Reply to: Re: Chess It is already "solved" posted by chandler yergin on April >10, 2005 at 21:33:19: > >To min-max chess using alpha-beta would require a horrific tree search. > >Assuming the branching factor would be about six, and stipulating that the game >can be solved in 40 moves (80 plies), which is clearly a horrific >under-estimate, the game tree size is on the order of 10^62. > >Even at a billion billion nodes per second, you could search for a billion >billion seconds, and you'd only be a billion billionth of the way to being a >billionth of the way done. > >bruce jfk or me or both? I stand by my point. Prove chess isn't a draw.
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