Author: chandler yergin
Date: 13:20:59 05/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 20, 2005 at 16:08:38, Terry McCracken wrote: >On May 20, 2005 at 12:21:28, chandler yergin wrote: > >>On May 20, 2005 at 03:41:59, Terry McCracken wrote: >> >>>On May 20, 2005 at 03:37:46, jefkaan wrote: >>> >>>>oops, small addition..: >>>> >>>>On May 20, 2005 at 03:31:01, jefkaan wrote: >>>> >>>>>with Moore's law, it might take only a few hundred >>>>>years to solve chess. >>>> >>>>of course i mean chess+, >>>>that is chess without the 50 move draw rule. >> >>Then it is not chess! >>Nor is Baseball a sport without the "3 Strikes and you're Out" Rule. >> >> >> >> >>>>with that rule chess probably is a draw. >>>> >>>>unequal bishops and so on spoil the game. >>>> >>>>but without the 50 move rule there might be a connection >>>>between 'best' opening lines and winning endgames >> >> >>Why waste time on hypotheticals? >>Play by the Rules & consider possibilites, only within those rules. >> >> >>>> >>>>not impossible; anyone who thinks differently >>>>may challenge my opinion without throwing insults, >>>>thx in advance >>>>jef >>> >>> >>>I already did, look above. IMO you have to disprove chess is a draw...too much >>>evidence to the contrary. >> >>Draws among the Top Players have increased. >>Tournament organizers are taking action now to preclude this. >> >>http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2399 >> >>Super GM Tournament >>in Sofia >>Six of the world's top players >>clash in the M-Tel Masters >>May 11 to 22, 2005 >>in the Grand Hotel Sofia, Bulgaria >> >>The Mtel Masters Super Tournament is under way. It is a category 20 event with >>an Elo average of 2744. The time controls are classic (up to seven hours per >>game) and the tournament is a double round robin (every player plays every other >>player twice). There is a special rule in place at this Super Tournament: draw >>offers are not allowed, i.e. draws by mutual agreement between the players are >>forbidden, only technical draws may be given by the arbiter. >> >> I think we will more of these types of Tournaments. >> >> >> As far as using Computer Programs for GM's to use for home analysis, >>they have their limitations too. >>A player is faced with an average of only about 35 legal moves to consider with >>each turn. >>Each move and its response is called a ply. The fastest chess programs like >>Fritz, & Shredder look ahead seven or eight plies into the game at 100Kn's per >>second, with interesting variations being searched to perhaps depth of 40 - 50 >>Ply. >> >>The result is a densely proliferating tree of possibilities with the branches >>and twigs representing all the different ways the game could unfold. Looking >>ahead just seven plies (14 individual chess moves) requires examining 35 to the >>14th power (more than a billion trillion) leaves representing all the various >>outcomes. >> >>As the computer tries to look deeper, the number of possibilities explodes. >>Programmers have learned clever ways to "prune" the trees, so that all but a >>fraction of the paths can be discarded without plumbing them all the way to the >>bottom. Even so, a chess-playing computer looking ahead seven plies might >>consider as many as 50 or 60 billion scenarios with each iteration. >> >>Now consider a previous Post by Bruce, which confirms the above. >> >>Posted by Bruce Moreland (Profile) on April 11, 2005 at 20:12:00: >>In Reply to: Re: Chess It is already "solved" posted by chandler yergin on April >>10, 2005 at 21:33:19: >> >>To min-max chess using alpha-beta would require a horrific tree search. >> >>Assuming the branching factor would be about six, and stipulating that the game >>can be solved in 40 moves (80 plies), which is clearly a horrific >>under-estimate, the game tree size is on the order of 10^62. >> >>Even at a billion billion nodes per second, you could search for a billion >>billion seconds, and you'd only be a billion billionth of the way to being a >>billionth of the way done. >> >>bruce > >jfk or me or both? > >I stand by my point. Prove chess isn't a draw. It can't be done! I agree with you!
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