Author: Matthew Hull
Date: 08:07:32 05/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 23, 2005 at 10:36:13, Darrel Briley wrote: >On May 23, 2005 at 08:31:48, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote: > >> >>I was reading Uri post. >> >>First. The real reason about why ICC to have wrote Rule 7 is to destroy and >>attack the "Antichess" by jealous. > >A few points: > >ICC had this rule long before you were ever a member. If you wanted to play the >same lines over and over, you could've played unrated. All the games in the >history and liblist of Pablo-Restrepo were played between the dates of March 9, >2005 through March 15, 2005. Even after you were awarded a (C), you repeated >the same lines over and over in blatant violation of the ICC rules you agreed to >when you joined. > >All the games you played were at the time control of 3 0 or less (at least the >games in your liblist and history). Generally speaking, players given the (C) >are detected through the Blitzin software due to "heavy >multi-tasking"....although I really don't think you were using a chess engine >due to the short time control you were playing at, and frankly speaking, engines >don't generally play so poorly. In many of the "wins" you had a completely >losing position. > >All wins were wins on time. > >Looking at the history of the last 20 games played by Pablo-Restrepo reveals >that in those 20 games, you won 7 games on time, the rest all losses. All 20 of >these games were played at the time control of 3 0. So, in the previous 217 >games played you had 46 wins (again, all at 3 0 or less). Again, hardly an >indication that the "antichess" method is to be considered effective. > >Total games played 237, total number of losses 156, total number of draws >28...hardly a ringing endorsement of "antichess" :o) > >In all the games in the history and liblist of Pablo-Restrepo there is but one >game against Shredder; by and large you won against what would be considered >"weaker" engines; for the most part, amateurs. > >It is still my contention that any moderately talented player (probably class C >or better) could achieve similar results if they are motivated enough, and have >time and patience enough to repeat the same lines over and over until they find >the "holes" in the programs. I say patience because it must be admitted the >entire lot are extremely boring games. What was the highest number of repeated >moves? I couldn't bring myself to play over all of them. Was it 20? 30? > >I do have the pgn (wins, losses and draws) if anyone would like to "study" them. Well done. I did look at a few of the games myself and came to a similar conclusion. Pablo's trick would not work so well at long time controls, I think. He certainly could not do it "on demand" such as in a six-game showdown at 120 0. But even though it's a lame trick, it should be allowed and programmers are responsible to fight against tricks. I think the ICC rule 7 is wrong-headed. If I were running ICC, I would allow repeating lines against programs. It is the programmer's responsibility to make a better program than to allow itself to be exploited. It is just another program weakness that needs fixing. There is no need to defend program weaknesses with extra rules. I would allow (and even encourage) players to punish such programmer oversights relentlessly. That's how you get better programs. I'd bet money Bob Hyatt agrees with me on this. :) > > >>Second. The real reason about ANTICHESS must be attacked it is that have been >>wrote by an amateur (Father) and not for Top chess human beings chess players. >> >>Third. Antichess is like the Pandora box that put in ridiculous all the false >>paradigms of marketing’s and V.I.P & Cia. >> >>Fourth. "Antichess" is being playing for many warriors. The warriors wont are >>stooping in the battle. >> >>Five. I was a victim from ICC in Pablo-Restrepo account where ICC put to me a >>false "C" and where Freebird banned to me because I did not stop to play >>ANTICHESS. >> >>Everyone can see my liblits of more than 48 games of Antichess I played there >>ICC. >> >>In mine notes of Pablo-Restrepo I wrote the truly about what happened with an >>antichess player(me) amateur that put in danger the false status of masters, >>engines, factories, and V.I.P that don’t recognize the other truth: THE AQUILES >>TALION of computers. >> >>Playchess is a democratic and scientific club. This is the principal difference, >> >>Best regards, >> >>Pablo Restrepo >> >>BlitzIn 2.31 (Spanish) >>Copyright (C) 1998-2000 Internet Chess Club >>Looking up chessclub.com... >>Trying to connect to 207.99.83.228 on port 5044... >>Connected >>Welcome to the INTERNET CHESS CLUB >> >>web: www.chessclub.com email: icc@chessclub.com >>phone: 1-412-521-5553 >> >>login: guest >> >> Because you are connected as an unregistered guest, you >> will not be able to play rated games, observe grandmaster >> games, play in tournaments, chat in most channels, adjourn >> games, or use many of the other features available to >> registered ICC members. See "help register". >>____________________________________________________________________ >>Your name for this session will be "guest1516". >> >>** The use of chess-playing programs is not allowed ** >>** unless you have a (C) label. "help computers" explains. ** >> >>Internet Chess Club Events: More details: "help event2". >> Times are EDT; add 4 hours for GMT. >>_____________________________________________________________________ >>Sun May 22, 6:30am: LIVE COVERAGE MTel Masters "finger Live" www.Chess.FM >>Sun May 21, 11am: LIVE COVERAGE HB Challenge "finger Live" www.Chess.FM >>Sun May 22, 1-6pm: STC Bunch Standard Tournament. "finger STC-TD" >>Sun May 22, 5pm: FREE 45 15 SIMUL IM Alexey Kireev "play MaestroASK" >>Sun May 22, 12noon: LIVE COVERAGE HB Challenge "finger Live" www.Chess.FM >>Mon May 23, 11:30am,1pm: Convekta Weekday 5 0 Blitz >>Mon May 23, 2:15pm: LONGER Time control tourney. "Help DailyStandard" >>Mon May 23, 5pm: FREE SIMUL 30 5 by Moonspell(IM) under 1800 >>Mon May 23, 7pm: Play the MASTER. "help PLAYtheMASTER". >>Mon May 23, 8pm: GM Larry Christiansen plays material odds blitz >>Mon May 23, 9pm: Bullet tournament: 1 0 rated, for all ratings. >>Tue May 24, 2,8,11pm: Standard Tournament 60 0 "help STtourney". >>Tue May 24, 2:15pm: LONGER Time control tourney. "Help DailyStandard" >>Tue May 24, 6:30pm: INTERNATIONAL MASTER Schroer gives a 50 20 SIMUL. >>____________________________________________________________________ >>LIVE COVERAGE MTel Masters from Sofia, Bulgaria "finger Sofia05" >>LIVE COVERAGE HB Challenge from Minneapolis, USA "finger HBchallenge05" >>Chessbattles, Tourneys with great prizes."finger chessbattles" >>---> Move timestamping activated. >>language set to Spanish. >>fin pablo-restrepo >> >> >>" THIS ELO AND GAMES WERE PLAYED FOR PABLO RESTREPO 100% AS A HUMAN BEING" >> >> >>Information about Pablo-Restrepo(C) (Last disconnected Wed Mar 16 2005 20:11): >> >> rating [need] win loss draw total best >>Blitz 2550 [8] 53 156 28 237 2676 (15-Mar-2005) >> >> 1: Now I am going to continue the battle in the challenger Man vs Machine into >>best of the best engines Chess Club, "Playchess from Chessbase", where >>democracy, freedom and science, to exist, into engines room. >> 2: I am 100% human being chess player. (the "C" is absolutly false and a signe >>of ICC persecution)" I am constructing the antichess way" diferent to the >>Dr.I.M.Levy concept."Antichess= Anti-alghoritm" "not the simple anticomputer >>way";Antiajedrez is builted over the flexible human being intelligence >> 3: Thanks to Playchess,Chessbase,Hydra Team,and everyone have got me >>oportunity to play against his-her engines.Thanks to "elDenso" from ICC for his >>note about my victorie agains Shredder 9.That could be a principle of truth >>publication about the state of art, becouse sport news and ICC are in wrong >>mistaken >> 4: Antiajedrez or Antichess is my own extreme style. Antiajedrez is a new word >>started in 2002 before a public chess-competence against Fritz 7 when I won.I am >>his inventor as sistematic method in the chesslife,wining on time or broking the >>computer value by stress.Traditional expert concepts was in a mistake. >> 5: Top engine 2005 is Hydra, from E.A.U. better than Deep Blue. I played >>Hydra first week March 2005 in a speed of 115,000 kilonodes each second. See: a >>Quard Opteron in Shredder go in speed of 5,500 kilonodes each second,a P 4 1.600 >>Ghz have speed 600 kilonodes each second.Could you see the Hydra power? >> 6: Are better engines that Human beings?; ¿Is antichess a bug-engines way >>?1-Doing what engines know how to do engines are better, but if you are cappable >>to discover ways that engines ignore(playing out of engine alghoritm across >>memory strategic),human being could be on top.2-Antichess is an autonomous art. >> 7: When engines can avoid the antichess way the score will be: Engines 1; >>Human being: 0. In my life I have played since 1980 against engines.Firstone >>where "Chess Challenger No 7" from Fidelity electronics.I wonder if the present >>and future Kilonodes(1,000 nodes eachoane)are going to beat antichess principle. >> 8: I want to say something. Really I would like to play against Top >>engines.Please dont scape to the challenger.Engines will be better if programers >>written a perfect book against "Father"and the Top are working in that way since >>2004 and now 2005 for 2006 set. ICC please open your intelligence to my new way >>!!! >> 9: The "C" is a simple agreed between Freebird-ICC and me. I hope in soon >>future ICC eraser the C and stop the persecution against me and open the doar >>for me to the computer knowloge like Top Programers, Top projects and Playchess >>have done. ICC: "Stop the protection of false V.I.P and false engines status!! >>10: Finally ICC mess to me broking the agreed. "You cannot play rated games from >>this account, for now." Only ICC will be losting international prestige with >>this top ignorant dark rule. ICC have lost oportunity to have me playing into >>ICC. A new bad move from ICC, selft-interest monetary. >> >> avoid avoid >> >> >>Subject: Re: HIARCS 9 and Anti-Chess >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>[ Post Followup (without quoting) ] [ Post Followup (with quoting) ] [ Computer >>Chess Resource Center ] [ Message Listing ] >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Posted by Uri Blass (Profile) on May 23, 2005 at 07:54:28: >> >>In Reply to: Re: HIARCS 9 and Anti-Chess posted by Uri Blass on May 23, 2005 at >>07:29:21: >> >> >>On May 23, 2005 at 07:29:21, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On May 23, 2005 at 05:39:00, Darrel Briley wrote: >>> >>>>On May 23, 2005 at 05:13:04, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 23, 2005 at 00:08:52, Darrel Briley wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 22, 2005 at 19:28:53, Eduard Nemeth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 22, 2005 at 18:53:07, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I am thinking chess is in a coin. >>>>>>>>Human beings for ever playing in one face. >>>>>>>>Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". >>>>>>>>Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to clouse a little door behind. >>>>>>>>You must enter across this doar. Forget the front. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Congrats Pablo! This was an nice game, but last after 15 losing games. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You losing 1 : 16 against Hiarcs 9. I seems Hiarcs 9 is very strong against >>>>>>>Anti-Chess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Or? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed:) >>>>>> >>>>>>I assume the reason you see such things on Playchess.com and not ICC is due to >>>>>>ICC's rules prohibiting playing the same line(s) repeatedly against an engine >>>>>>until you FINALLLLLY get a win. >>>>> >>>>>I do not know about a rule in ICC that prohibit playing the same lines >>>>>repeatedly against an engine. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>http://www.chessclub.com/help/abuse >>>> >>>>7. Playing the same line over and over against a computer, to gain rating >>>>points. We will edit your rating to whatever we feel is reasonable if you do >>>>this. >>>> >>>>Accounts that abuse, distort, or cheat the rating system on ICC may have the >>>>ratings adjusted, may be added to the "disconnectors" list (causing immediate >>>>loss upon disconnection), may be prevented from playing rated games, or may lose >>>>their ICC account entirely. These actions will be taken at the sole discretion >>>>of the ICC administrators. >>> >>>Thanks >>> >>>This rule is talking only about trying to get rating >>> >>>People are still allowed to play the same line over and over in friendly games >>>against computers. >>> >>>I also think that the rule is not fair. >>> >>>It means that playing the same line over and over against an human to gain >>>rating points is allowed and playing against convenient human opponent is also a >>>trick to get rating points. >>> >>>If the target is to do the rating fair then it is better to forbid people to >>>play for rating except playing in open swiss tournaments when you cannot choose >>>your opponent. >>> >>>Uri >> >>I can add that the rule is also against programmers. >> >>Suppose that a programmer implemented some new learning function in order to >>prevent humans to earn rating by repeating the same line again and again. >> >>How can the programmer check if the learning works when humans are not allowed >>to try repeating the same line again and again. >> >>Uri
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