Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 02:09:18 05/30/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 29, 2005 at 23:26:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On May 29, 2005 at 11:17:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote: > >>On May 29, 2005 at 08:45:21, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On May 29, 2005 at 06:57:36, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>> >>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:41:24, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 11:18:05, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 10:46:48, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 18:02:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 17:54:57, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hello Thomas >>>>>>>>>I would like to see playing into playchess engines room, to Dr. Robert Hyatt >>>>>>>>>engines. >>>>>>>>>For me is a problem to play into ICC because I have not premoves into ICC, and >>>>>>>>>as a guest if there are disconnection immediately I will be lost. >>>>>>>>>I would like to play a challenger (just for fun and for testing engines to be >>>>>>>>>better engines and of course me too) into playchess against Crafty from Dr >>>>>>>>>Robert Hyatt and against Quark, if could be possible into main room better for >>>>>>>>>everyone. >>>>>>>>>Unique way for me to discover new ways will be playing in long time controls. >>>>>>>>>This has been a dream for me Thomas. >>>>>>>>>Best regard, >>>>>>>>>Pablo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>If I understand correctly >>>>>>>>I understand that engines lose on time automatically at move 257 in playchess >>>>>>>>and that this problem is not engine problem but interface problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that if this problem is not fixed then engines suffer from unfair >>>>>>>>conditions in playchess. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It seems that maybe you don't understand the technique. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>A human with pre-move (and just enough lag) will always win a closed position on >>>>>>>time if the game is long enough - regardless of time control (as long as there >>>>>>>is no increment), and regardless of anything that happens on move 257. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Bob Hyatt says crafty will never lose on time this way. So far, Pablo has not >>>>>>been able to win against crafty on ICC with this technique. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vas >>>>> >>>>>Let me show you how to do it :) >>>>> >>>>>Vas >>>> >>>>Ok - crafty is damn hard to provoke into closing the position and I didn't have >>>>the patience for a zillion games. >>>> >>>>Still - the question is, how many moves will crafty play in a 3-minute game >>>>before running out of time. There is of course some limit, even if it's 1000. >>> >>> >>>If it is 1000 then the question is if it is possible to get a game of 1000 game >>>against the program. >>> >>> A >>>>pre-mover can play an infinite amount. >>>> >>>>Vas >>> >>>No >>> >>>After 50 moves with no capture and conversion the program claims a draw and >>>there is some practical limit for the number of moves in the game. >>> >>>I doubt if humans can play 1000 moves against a program without getting some >>>winning position in the process and without draw by the 50 move rule. >>> >>> >> >>That doesn't contradict anything I said. The point is that you can't say that >>Crafty will never lose on time. You can only say that in a 3 0 game, Crafty can >>play X moves, and that X is usually going to be enough. > > > >In theory, crafty can play 180,000 moves in a 3 0 game. In reality it won't, >because it will use more time up front. But in that last second of time, it can >play 1000 moves. Pre-move is going to get you absolutely killed there, for >reasons I have already stated. > >We can set up a guest account test on ICC for you to try if you want. I already >know the result. _nobody_ tries that type of play against Crafty any longer. >Several used to. Ok, I'd like to try it. (Probably you're right but this way I can say that I tested it.) Can I start from the following position: [D] r1bqk1br/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/R7/3B1B2/8/P1P1P1P1/3K3R w kq - At 3 0? I can try to log on either tonight or tomorrow night. BTW - I tried several games over the weekend and could never get Crafty to lock the position completely. Vas >> >>> >>> >>>A premover can be punished by some stupid sacrifice. >>>I do not think that it is very hard to make a program that detect premovers and >>>punish them by that way. >>> >>>Of course that way have risks but if the program is not deterministic about the >>>time of making the stupid sacrifice the opponent may lose most of the games >>>because he will be unable to guess when the program make the stupid sacrifice >>>and when to stop premoving. >>> >> >>Yes, of course. This sort of pre-move-based guessing is normal stuff in >>human-human bullet games. If you're good at it, it's easily worth 100 rating >>points. >> >>Vas >> >>>Uri
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