Author: Mridul Muralidharan
Date: 08:57:01 05/30/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 30, 2005 at 05:11:50, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >On May 30, 2005 at 04:00:22, Mridul Muralidharan wrote: > >>On May 29, 2005 at 19:09:14, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >> >>>On May 29, 2005 at 15:08:17, Mridul Muralidharan wrote: >>> >>>>On May 29, 2005 at 11:35:42, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 08:25:02, Mridul Muralidharan wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:29:33, Günther Simon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:20:00, Vladimir Elin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hi Alex, >>>>>>>>I think that reason for you to use only engines with open sources and delete >>>>>>>>all engines were you can see words : alpha, beta, prunning and many many etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vladimir that is really a dumb post after all... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Guenther >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You idea that Patriot 2.0 is clone - full absurd. >>>>>>>>Best. >>>>>>>>Vladimir. >>>>>> >>>>>>Is it really such a dumb post ? I am not sure - whenever someone mentions >>>>>>"clone" , I am skeptical - inspite of the number of clones that are discovered. >>>>>>I prefer to give the author the benifit of doubt - a genourously large benifit >>>>>>at that. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nothing is opensource programs is a "secret" , I mean - even if they were not >>>>>>opensource , the amateur (and definitely professional) authors will have arrived >>>>>>(or already have) at them independently : by expiriments or through available >>>>>>docs. I dont really see any ground breaking code or idea in any of the >>>>>>opensource engines today - all are straight forward implementations of the >>>>>>standard theory. >>>>>> >>>>>>Most , if not all , clone accusations show as "proof" something really dumb - >>>>>>like string search , result in a single position , behaviour of a parser (which >>>>>>is _not_ part of the engine as such people !) , etc - maybe these are the only >>>>>>possible ways to identify clones (I am not sure - and as I have posted before , >>>>>>I dont really care much) , but based on such flimsy grounds people should not >>>>>>accuse others. >>>>>>When you accuse a program as a clone - you are also maligning the reputation of >>>>>>the author : which is the more serious thing IMHO. >>>>>> >>>>>>What Vladimir Elin is hinting at is that (I think) , people (usually non-chess >>>>>>engine programmers who know quiet little about the programming aspects) see >>>>>>something/anything strange (in their eyes) and cry wolf. >>>>>>Like a string search which returns strings - which might be what is defined in >>>>>>the pgn spec , or a binary search which returns data match (whcih might be de to >>>>>>a generated parser for pgn handling for book) , etc ! >>>>>> >>>>>>Ofcourse wachful people are always needs to see the hints which will lead to the >>>>>>identification of many clones , but IMO we need a better way to decide how to >>>>>>identify clones. >>>>>> >>>>>>The current process seems to be : 1) Accuse 2) Flame 3) Author defends 4) >>>>>>mudslinging 5) Nasty posts - brining the author's whole family history to the >>>>>>ground 6) Challenge (to show source) 7) If 6 accepted , cleared , else branded >>>>>>as clone. >>>>>> I dont know about others, but no I am never going to send my source code to >>>>>>someone I dont personally trust - even if the rest of the computer chess >>>>>>community might seem to. >>>>>>Not everyone knows what the non-opensource guys are doing in their code : and >>>>>>personally I do many a stupid things , but I might have something interesting >>>>>>too :) >>>>>> >>>>>>So why have opensource engines ? - different question anyway , we wont discuss >>>>>>that since it is largely an authors decision. >>>>>> >>>>>>We should try to promote the number of amateur engines so that as many people as >>>>>>possible should enter this field - not discourage people. (both within >>>>>>reasonable limits ofcourse) >>>>>> >>>>>>Mridul >>>>> >>>>>Mridul -- >>>>> >>>>>First of all, your post makes me wonder if you are familiar with the Patriot 2.0 >>>>>situation, but anyway those things are boring for me so let's talk philosophy >>>>>for a second :) >>>>> >>>>>I've had the good or maybe bad luck to spend at least 3 years living in five >>>>>different countries, and I can make a certain observation. In two of these >>>>>countries - USA and Germany - society essentially works. Wages are decent, crime >>>>>is kept down, things just work. In three of these countries - Hungary, Czech >>>>>Republic and Poland - no offense intended to anyone, but they just don't work as >>>>>well. People steal from the government without getting punished, people cheat on >>>>>their jobs, nobody is willing to deal with various problems, etc. >>>>> >>>>>What's the difference? A huge difference is that in Germany and USA, people >>>>>essentially care. If they see something wrong, they report it and attempt to >>>>>rectify it. This goes from cleaning up a small mess on the road, to calling the >>>>>police if the neighbor is beating his family, etc. Throughout Eastern Europe, >>>>>people are apathetic - and everybody suffers as a result. >>>>> >>>>>Sometimes, it can seem a bit too much. I remember I had this impression when I >>>>>first came to the US - why is everybody so concerned with things that aren't >>>>>their business. In the overall picture, though, society is better for it. >>>>> >>>>>So I certainly appreciate that there are people who are going to look into these >>>>>things and do something about it, rather than just endlessly holding their >>>>>tongue for fear of being out of line. Without it, computer chess will just be a >>>>>mess. >>>>> >>>>>Vas >>>> >>>>Hi Vas, >>>> >>>> Like I mentioned myself , we need people who will point out the >>>>errors/suspicions. >>>>But these are just that suspicions - a 35% binary match of the executables (egtb >>>>will account for that ;-) ) , a small set of common strings , a bug in the fen >>>>parser (I have seen multiple people misread/misinterpret the same spec - there >>>>will be grey areas even in the most well written specs) , etc are not enough by >>>>a long shot to accuse something as a clone - they can be indicators of a >>>>potential clone at best. >>>> >>>>I visit CCC less and less nowadays - and each time I do so , a new program seems >>>>to be accused of being a clone : personally I dont care , it is a hobby for me , >>>>something I use to fill my remaining freetime with when I am not busy with other >>>>opensource projects I am involved with - but true , there are people who take it >>>>seriously and for them and for the future (if not for other reasons) we should >>>>try to keep this field as clean as possible. >>>> >>>>But that should not be at the expense of any tom dick and harry coming out and >>>>accusing programs of being a clone. >>>>That is why I said - we should have a better process for clone issue : how clone >>>>suspicions are raised , how they are probed into , how they are proved/disproved >>>>, etc : a bunch of amateurish tests should not be the basis of flame wars here. >>>>Makes the whole forum (and field for that matter) more and more unreadable and >>>>uninteresting. >>>> >>>> The analogy you raised is not really valid in this context (IMHO :) ). >>>>I wrote a long response in this space on that - and then removed it. >>>>That is not the matter we are discussing here :) - it will most probably only >>>>expose my ignorance of the issues concerned since I have never physically been >>>>to the places mentioned like you though I am made aware of the ground realities >>>>through my friends. >>>> >>>>Anyway , you are correct about the first point - my understanding (from what >>>>little I read among the accusations and counteraccusations that kept flying >>>>around) was that Patriot 2 was accused of being a clone , author did not expose >>>>the source code , branded as a clone by the community here based on the >>>>circumstantial evidence found (I read a few - maybe I missed a lot more) and the >>>>ones I read looked not very solid to me (I have not done any research on Patriot >>>>and never used it for that matter , so likely that I am missing the finer points >>>>of the Patriot2 clone issue). >>>> >>>>My main problem with these accusations is that : >>>> >>>>1) People here follow the maxim guilty until proven innocent. >>>> >>>>2) Sensationalism in the accusations - I see more and more of this in the media >>>>where it is better to say something bad to get the max amount of publicity and >>>>attention : same thing is being "imported" into CCC. >>>> >>>>3) In general , it is the author's reputation which is more at stake than the >>>>program as such , and mudslinging is affecting the author's reputation (the >>>>accusations might or mightnot be correct). >>>>Hence , even if something is disproved - the result is not going to remove the >>>>damage already done to it ! >>>> >>>>"An arrow which leaves the bow and a word which leaves the mouth cannot be taken >>>>back" - an old saying here :) >>>> >>>>I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty" too much (it might be a >>>>cultural/upbringing thing, not sure) , which is why these discussions disturb me >>>>more. >>>>Very few people seem to stick up for the author in general - like Peter Skinner >>>>seems to be doing right now (just skimmed through the posts now) , the more >>>>vocal group are the ones who are accusing. The others seem to be maintaining a >>>>studied silence - true , you should try not to react until you get all the facts >>>>- mark of a wise man , but sometimes it galls me when the more vocal group makes >>>>the community believe in an issue just because they keep repeating it and the >>>>others dont challenge or respond until everyone believes it ! >>>>I have seen way too many "discussions" of this nature in other forums online and >>>>now recently in CCC also. >>>>Justice happens when both sides are looked at impartially : assuming people are >>>>really interested in getting to the roots of the problem. (which most of us in >>>>CCC here are I assume). >>>> >>>>Note : even now I am not really saying whether the programs are clones or not , >>>>I dont have the data , unfortunately neither the time to investigate , or the >>>>patience for it right now and really appreciate the work people are puttig in >>>>this work. >>>> >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>Mridul >>> >>>Hi Mridul -- >>> >>>Ok there is no way I can write something intelligent at this hour :) >>> >>>There is a balance of course between persecuting too many innocents, and >>>defending too many who are guilty. >>> >>>I guess I don't see this particular cause as very attractive. >>> >>>Here is some more stuff about it: >>> >>>http://www.uciengines.de/UCI-Engines/Patriot/Patriot2/hauptteil_patriot2.html >>> >>>But frankly - I don't really care. :) >>> >>>Vas >> >>Hi Vas, >> >> Thanks for the link - will look into it later today. >>My understanding of the legal system (atleast over here) is that even if a >>thousand guilty escape , one innocent should not be punished. >> >>But you are correct - even I dont really care about clone issue (you publish the >>source , you expect others to use it - else dont publish it !) , and as I said >>before , if I ever do opensource any of my programs , I still wont care if >>someone clones them :) >>All this discussions is just to support the rest who do and the lend moral >>support to the programmers in general :-D >>In most of clone "discussions" here (I might have missed some) , I always >>support the programmer even when the evidence seems a bit too overwhelming and >>back off only when it becomes a certainity ... maybe it is just the romantic in >>me :) >>Even if initially through a clone , I would prefer more people getting into a >>field - later on they might start off on their own and create something really >>interesting (ideas I mean - I dont care much about implementation details) , >>etc. >> >>Thanks, >>Mridul > >I tend to think like this myself but over time I've come to realize that if >everybody was like this, there would be a lot of robbers and thieves floating >around. Well , not everyone thinks that way (unlike you and me :) ) - general people usually are the first to brand someone as a criminal on the basis of flimsy evidence : usually what gets fed to them through the media and based on sensational/gruesome facts. As an individual , everyone is free to form their own opinions (and he does not need to justify/defend it to anyone). But before we (as a community) declare that something is a clone , get it removed from tourny's , brand the author as a clone-creater , etc (which could be considered parallel to dishing out a verdict in court ?) we should try to be more rigourous. For me personally it is not important whether program X (whether written by me or not) is branded as a clone : since I do think for kicks during free time , but not everyone will take this attitude : and I want to give those people support who might not be very vocal or have a large support group - until atleast it is conclusively proved. > >A lot of wrongdoing depends on the uncertainty of the audience - people may >pretty much understand what is happening, but they can't "prove" it, while >others are talking about "innocent until proven guilty" and in other ways >rewarding doing nothing. In the meantime, the robbers are laughing all the way >to the bank. Very true - we have way too many incidents in nearly all countries about people who have scammed , conned , robbed (some going into billions of dollars) and still walk around free. I heard that a murderer in highly publicized case in US also escaped this way (vaguely remember hearing something like this). But that does not remove the fundamental tennent of the justice system , which is justice and the accused is held innocent until proven guilty. In some case , this gets modified as proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - which is when a really unlucky innocent guy gets the sentence based on circumstantial evidence. (I dont know how many actual cases have gone through like this , but there are way too many movies here which highlight these loopholes here :) ) Innocent until proven guilty does not mean that the robbers get to roam around free. It means that the system will not brand someone as a criminal until the investigation is over and all sides of the case/arguments are looked into - the case is still in active scrutiny and until it is cleared , it will be ... There just wont be a bias against the accused. (Example : society looking at a chain killer with very hostile viewpoint , if public decide his case, he will get lynched - but if justice is to be served , the court will hear his side , give him oppurtunatet to defend (most important !) and then decide impartially on the basis of the facts presented - not on passion). > >That's what happens when things start to fall apart. > >Of course this is all maybe a bit too dramatic for copying some computer chess >code. BTW - do check out that link - it's pretty funny IMHO ... Very true :) I did look at the website and had a real good laugh :) One important question I had though was - I would be scandalised with the nodes to depth and branching factor :-) Thanks, Mridul PS : Feeling damn sleepy , so maybe the post is semi to full rambling and totally incoherent - will rephrase/repost if that is the case tommorrow morning :) Personally I get disturbed when I see accusations like this - I like to keep the field clean if possible with as much cooperation between contributors : ah well , I like to live in utopia :-D > >Vas
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