Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 02:43:15 05/31/05
Go up one level in this thread
On May 30, 2005 at 16:17:50, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On May 30, 2005 at 05:09:18, Vasik Rajlich wrote: > >>On May 29, 2005 at 23:26:29, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On May 29, 2005 at 11:17:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>> >>>>On May 29, 2005 at 08:45:21, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 06:57:36, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:41:24, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 11:18:05, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 10:46:48, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 18:02:25, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 17:54:57, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hello Thomas >>>>>>>>>>>I would like to see playing into playchess engines room, to Dr. Robert Hyatt >>>>>>>>>>>engines. >>>>>>>>>>>For me is a problem to play into ICC because I have not premoves into ICC, and >>>>>>>>>>>as a guest if there are disconnection immediately I will be lost. >>>>>>>>>>>I would like to play a challenger (just for fun and for testing engines to be >>>>>>>>>>>better engines and of course me too) into playchess against Crafty from Dr >>>>>>>>>>>Robert Hyatt and against Quark, if could be possible into main room better for >>>>>>>>>>>everyone. >>>>>>>>>>>Unique way for me to discover new ways will be playing in long time controls. >>>>>>>>>>>This has been a dream for me Thomas. >>>>>>>>>>>Best regard, >>>>>>>>>>>Pablo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>If I understand correctly >>>>>>>>>>I understand that engines lose on time automatically at move 257 in playchess >>>>>>>>>>and that this problem is not engine problem but interface problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I think that if this problem is not fixed then engines suffer from unfair >>>>>>>>>>conditions in playchess. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It seems that maybe you don't understand the technique. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>A human with pre-move (and just enough lag) will always win a closed position on >>>>>>>>>time if the game is long enough - regardless of time control (as long as there >>>>>>>>>is no increment), and regardless of anything that happens on move 257. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Bob Hyatt says crafty will never lose on time this way. So far, Pablo has not >>>>>>>>been able to win against crafty on ICC with this technique. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Vas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Let me show you how to do it :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Vas >>>>>> >>>>>>Ok - crafty is damn hard to provoke into closing the position and I didn't have >>>>>>the patience for a zillion games. >>>>>> >>>>>>Still - the question is, how many moves will crafty play in a 3-minute game >>>>>>before running out of time. There is of course some limit, even if it's 1000. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>If it is 1000 then the question is if it is possible to get a game of 1000 game >>>>>against the program. >>>>> >>>>> A >>>>>>pre-mover can play an infinite amount. >>>>>> >>>>>>Vas >>>>> >>>>>No >>>>> >>>>>After 50 moves with no capture and conversion the program claims a draw and >>>>>there is some practical limit for the number of moves in the game. >>>>> >>>>>I doubt if humans can play 1000 moves against a program without getting some >>>>>winning position in the process and without draw by the 50 move rule. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>That doesn't contradict anything I said. The point is that you can't say that >>>>Crafty will never lose on time. You can only say that in a 3 0 game, Crafty can >>>>play X moves, and that X is usually going to be enough. >>> >>> >>> >>>In theory, crafty can play 180,000 moves in a 3 0 game. In reality it won't, >>>because it will use more time up front. But in that last second of time, it can >>>play 1000 moves. Pre-move is going to get you absolutely killed there, for >>>reasons I have already stated. >>> >>>We can set up a guest account test on ICC for you to try if you want. I already >>>know the result. _nobody_ tries that type of play against Crafty any longer. >>>Several used to. >> >>Ok, I'd like to try it. (Probably you're right but this way I can say that I >>tested it.) >> >>Can I start from the following position: >> >>[D] r1bqk1br/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/R7/3B1B2/8/P1P1P1P1/3K3R w kq - >> >>At 3 0? >> >>I can try to log on either tonight or tomorrow night. >> >>BTW - I tried several games over the weekend and could never get Crafty to lock >>the position completely. >> >>Vas >> > > > > >The problem with trying to start there is that Crafty would _never_ allow that >to happen in a real game. Starting in a nearly drawn position is not going to >prove much. The problem is in reaching such a position, while using pre-move, >without making a tactical error when it plays something unexpected and your >pre-move turns into an outright blunder... > > Bob - I just wanted to see how many moves Crafty could play in a 3 0 game on the ICC server. You're pretty confident that the server isn't going to stop you from playing a huge number - I think it's worth a test. From this position, we can go up to about 2000 moves. In a real game, getting past 300 moves or so is going to be really tough - at least it will take quite a few games, with a lot of dumb losses along the way. Nobody is disputing that. Vas > > >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>A premover can be punished by some stupid sacrifice. >>>>>I do not think that it is very hard to make a program that detect premovers and >>>>>punish them by that way. >>>>> >>>>>Of course that way have risks but if the program is not deterministic about the >>>>>time of making the stupid sacrifice the opponent may lose most of the games >>>>>because he will be unable to guess when the program make the stupid sacrifice >>>>>and when to stop premoving. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Yes, of course. This sort of pre-move-based guessing is normal stuff in >>>>human-human bullet games. If you're good at it, it's easily worth 100 rating >>>>points. >>>> >>>>Vas >>>> >>>>>Uri
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