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Subject: Re: Is Possible a Challenger in Playchess Dr Robert Hyatt Crafty and Quark ?

Author: Vasik Rajlich

Date: 02:44:43 05/31/05

Go up one level in this thread


On May 30, 2005 at 16:38:02, Thomas Mayer wrote:

>Hi Vasik,
>
>On May 30, 2005 at 15:50:44, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>
>>On May 30, 2005 at 05:20:10, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On May 30, 2005 at 05:09:18, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 23:26:29, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 11:17:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 08:45:21, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On May 29, 2005 at 06:57:36, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 12:41:24, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 11:18:05, Matthew Hull wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On May 28, 2005 at 10:46:48, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 18:02:25, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On May 27, 2005 at 17:54:57, Pablo Ignacio Restrepo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hello Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would like to see playing into playchess engines room, to Dr. Robert Hyatt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>engines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>For me is a problem to play into ICC because I have not premoves into ICC, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>as a guest if there are disconnection immediately I will be lost.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would like to play a challenger (just for fun and for testing engines to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>better engines and of course me too) into playchess against Crafty from Dr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert Hyatt and against Quark, if could be possible into main room better for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Unique way for me to discover new ways will be playing in long time controls.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>This has been a dream for me Thomas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Best regard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pablo
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>If I understand correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>I understand that engines lose on time automatically at move 257 in playchess
>>>>>>>>>>>>and that this problem is not engine problem but interface problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I think that if this problem is not fixed then engines suffer from unfair
>>>>>>>>>>>>conditions in playchess.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>It seems that maybe you don't understand the technique.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>A human with pre-move (and just enough lag) will always win a closed position on
>>>>>>>>>>>time if the game is long enough - regardless of time control (as long as there
>>>>>>>>>>>is no increment), and regardless of anything that happens on move 257.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Bob Hyatt says crafty will never lose on time this way.  So far, Pablo has not
>>>>>>>>>>been able to win against crafty on ICC with this technique.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Vas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Let me show you how to do it :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Vas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ok - crafty is damn hard to provoke into closing the position and I didn't have
>>>>>>>>the patience for a zillion games.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Still - the question is, how many moves will crafty play in a 3-minute game
>>>>>>>>before running out of time. There is of course some limit, even if it's 1000.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it is 1000 then the question is if it is possible to get a game of 1000 game
>>>>>>>against the program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>pre-mover can play an infinite amount.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Vas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>After 50 moves with no capture and conversion the program claims a draw and
>>>>>>>there is some practical limit for the number of moves in the game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I doubt if humans can play 1000 moves against a program without getting some
>>>>>>>winning position in the process and without draw by the 50 move rule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That doesn't contradict anything I said. The point is that you can't say that
>>>>>>Crafty will never lose on time. You can only say that in a 3 0 game, Crafty can
>>>>>>play X moves, and that X is usually going to be enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In theory, crafty can play 180,000 moves in a 3 0 game.  In reality it won't,
>>>>>because it will use more time up front.  But in that last second of time, it can
>>>>>play 1000 moves.  Pre-move is going to get you absolutely killed there, for
>>>>>reasons I have already stated.
>>>>>
>>>>>We can set up a guest account test on ICC for you to try if you want.  I already
>>>>>know the result.  _nobody_ tries that type of play against Crafty any longer.
>>>>>Several used to.
>>>>
>>>>Ok, I'd like to try it. (Probably you're right but this way I can say that I
>>>>tested it.)
>>>>
>>>>Can I start from the following position:
>>>>
>>>>[D] r1bqk1br/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/R7/3B1B2/8/P1P1P1P1/3K3R w kq -
>>>>
>>>>At 3 0?
>>>
>>>This position is illegal.
>>>
>>>There is no way that the black bishop could go to g8.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>I forgot to mention that it's from a Fischer random game.
>>
>>:)
>
>which is not possible either -> in FRC the bishops are always from different
>colors in the initial position. So let's say it's from a Shuffle Chess game...
>:)
>
>Greets, Thomas

Hi Thomas --

Aha, that's a good rule. This Fischer guy really thought of everything.

So indeed it was a Shuffle game.

:)

Vas



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