Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 22:35:36 06/02/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 02, 2005 at 23:24:59, Eelco de Groot wrote: >On June 02, 2005 at 22:46:17, John Merlino wrote: > >>On June 02, 2005 at 22:41:14, John Merlino wrote: >> >>>On June 02, 2005 at 22:30:27, Terry McCracken wrote: >>> >>>>On June 02, 2005 at 22:09:13, John Merlino wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 02, 2005 at 19:53:39, ludicrous wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>The first one is: >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]2bqkb1r/1r1n1ppp/p3p3/np6/4PB2/2N2NP1/P1Q2PBP/3R1RK1 w k - 0 16 >>>>>> >>>>>>White to move. Umansky played Nd5!! >>>>> >>>>>This looks like a sound sacrifice. However, CM9_R1 does not find it on an AMD >>>>>2500 in under three minutes. >>>>> >>>>>>The next is: >>>>>> >>>>>>Tal Mikhail (LAT) - Larsen Bent (DEN) [B82] >>>>>>Ch World match (1/2) Bled (Yugoslavia), 10.03.1965 >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]rqb2rk1/3nbppp/p2pp3/6P1/1p1BPP2/2NB1Q2/PPP4P/2KR3R w - - 0 16 >>>>>> >>>>>>Tal played 16. Nd5! >>>>> >>>>>But THIS looks like one of those infamous Tal "sacrifices" that did nothing more >>>>>than put the fear of God into his opponent. The King prefers many different >>>>>moves for Black other than the ones that Larsen played: >>>>> >>>>>17...g6 (score of -1.25) instead of 17...f5 (-0.50) >>>>>18...Bd8 (score of -1.94) instead of 18...Rf7 (-1.05) >>>>>19...Nc5 (score of -1.27) instead of 18...Bb7 (+0.75) >>>>> >>>>>Of course, this requires more intense analysis, but the early verdict is that >>>>>Tal stole another one.... :-) >>>>> >>>>>jm >>>> >>>>John the sac is sound, you can't take the Night without risk and if it lives it >>>>wins. If you mess with this long enough and go deep enough White's pieces are >>>>too much for Black's King. Maybe you can muster a defence, but it will be tough. >>>> >>>>Don't trust the King program that much...it fails to grasp sacs like Nxe6! in >>>>the Carro-Kann. >>>> >>>>1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dc 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Bd3 Ngf6 6.Ng5 e6 7.Nf3 h6? 8.Nxe6! >>>> >>>>This test might be better suited for Junior or Rebel:) >>>> >>>>Terry >>>> >>>>The King is badly confused by this sac. >>> >>>Well, I can't argue with you there. >>> >>>But just because The King doesn't find one (or two) sacs doesn't mean that those >>>sacs are necessarily sound. As I pointed out in my follow-up, apparently this >>>jury is still out on this move. >>> >>>All I was saying was that there is possibly a way that Black could have >>>"mustered a defense", starting with 16...g6 instead of 16...f5. >>> >>>jm >> >>Yet another follow-up... :-) First of all, it should be 17...g6 instead of >>16...g6 above. >> >>I should also have included playing 18...Bd8 instead of 18...Rf7. So, the whole >>line I suggest, starting with the sac, is 16.Nd5 exd5 17.exd5 g6 18.Rde1 Bd8, >>and Black has solidified rather than ran forward and started exchanging pieces >>and allowing White a big attack. >> >>jm > >If Terry finds a win for White he will have improved on Kasparov's analysis! > >I still am not 100% sure that White has totally nothing after this line, but it >appears theoreticians poured over the game for months at the time back in the >sixties! It was discussed on CSS-forum a while back. Pro Deo Vulcan 1.1 Q1 - >Tactical Engine will play the sacrifice by the way but 18.Rde1 does not appear >in the PV. Shredder 9 nor any other program I think will play the >-bluff?-sacrifice, 16.Ne2 is thought to be the best reply. Fritz 8 reportedly >does not see g6, so against some programs it might work! > >Shredder's analysis after 16.Nd5 exd5 17.exd5: > >17...g6 18.Rde1 Bd8 19.Qh3 Ne5 20.Qh6 Bb6 21.Bxe5 dxe5 22.fxe5 Qa7 23.Rhf1 Bf2 >24.Re2 Be3+ 25.Kb1 Bg4 26.Ree1 Bh5 -+ > >-as given by Joachim Rang on CSS-forum- > > > Pro Deo 1.1 Vulcan Q1e - Tactical Engine Athlon 3200+ > > >00:00:00.3 2,77 2 1366 Bxg7 bxc3 Bxc3 >00:00:00.3 1,47 3 1885 Bxg7 bxc3 Bxc3 e5 >00:00:00.3 1,71 4 5723 Bxg7 bxc3 Bxc3 Ne5 fxe5 Bxg5+ >00:00:00.3 0,66 5 31004 Bxg7 Kxg7 Ne2 Kg8 Qh5 Bb7 >00:00:00.4 1,42 5 52044 Nd5 exd5 Qh5 Ne5 fxe5 dxe5 >00:00:00.4 1,28 6 91789 Nd5 exd5 Qh5 Nc5 Rhe1 Nxd3+ Rxd3 >00:00:00.5 0,87 7 213351 Nd5 exd5 Qh5 Nc5 Bxg7 dxe4 Bd4 exd3 >00:00:00.7 1,39 7 337404 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nd5 exd5 exd5 Kg8 Qe4 Nf6 Qxe7 Nxd5 >00:00:01.0 1,28 8 728958 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nd5 exd5 Qh5 Rd8 Rhg1 Kg8 >00:00:03.2 1,00 9 2781361 Bxg7 Kxg7 Na4 Rh8 Qh5 Kf8 Qh6+ Kg8 a3 e5 >00:00:04.1 1,18 9 3800164 Nd5 exd5 exd5 Ne5 fxe5 Bxg5+ Kb1 dxe5 Rdg1 g6 Bc5 Bf4 >00:00:05.9 1,18 10 5760744 Nd5 exd5 exd5 Ne5 fxe5 Bxg5+ Kb1 dxe5 Rdg1 g6 Bc5 Bf4 >00:00:12.3 0,94 11 12812050 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 Rhe1 Re8 Rd2 Nc5 Bc4 Bf5 Rde2 >00:00:49.0 0,85 12 53819733 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 Qh3 Re8 Qh6 Bf8 Qh4 Be7 Rhe1 h5 >00:02:43.4 0,80 13 183823907 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 h4 Nc5 h5 >00:03:41.7 0,80 13 251407392 Bxg7 >00:08:10.3 0,80 13 183823907 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 h4 Nc5 h5 >00:12:55.9 1,08 14 879373939 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 Rhe1 Re8 Re2 Ne5 fxe5 >00:27:37.1 0,97 15 1925494112 Nd5 exd5 exd5 g6 h4 Nc5 h5 Nxd3+ Rxd3 > > > > >Als Antwort auf: Re: Shredder 9 sieht es gar nicht... geschrieben von Joachim >Rang am 21. Mai 2005 08:33:18: > >>Gibts eine ausführliche Analyse zu der Stellung im Netz, bzw. wie gewinnt Weiß nach 16.Sd5 ed5 17.exd5 g6 ? > >Google bringt einige Suchtreffer, darunter folgendes Zitat: > >"Analysts looked at this position for months after, and concluded that g6 was >probably black's best defensive resource here." > >Tja, 1965 hatte man noch keinen Shredder 9 damit wärs schneller gegangen. > >Das Opfer wird häufig als positionell, spekulativ oder sogar als Bluff >beschrieben. > >Hier gibt Dennis Monokroussos einige Varianten inkl. Bezugnahme auf Kasparov's >Werk Great Predecessors an, wo diese Partie also offenbar auch behandelt wurde: > >http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/posts/1115334050.shtml > > >mfg. >M.Scheidl > >Geschrieben von Michael Gurevich am 21. Mai 2005 13:52:23: > >Als Antwort auf: Re: Shredder 9 sieht es gar nicht... geschrieben von Joachim >Rang am 21. Mai 2005 08:33:18: > >>> > > >>> >>> >>Selbst wenn ich 16.Sd5 exd5 17.exd5 vorgebe bewertet Shredder 9 auf Tiefe 24 die Stellung als voteilhaft für Schwarz und kommt mit folgender halsbrecherischer Variante: >>17...g6 18.Tde1 Ld8 19.Dh3 Se5 20.Dh6 Lb6 21.Lxe5 dxe5 22.fxe5 Da7 23.Thf1 Lf2 24.Te2 Le3+ 25.Kb1 Lg4 26.Tee1 Lh5 -+ >>Gibts eine ausführliche Analyse zu der Stellung im Netz, bzw. wie gewinnt Weiß nach 16.Sd5 ed5 17.exd5 g6 ? < > > >Hallo Joachim! > >In Kasparovs Buch "Meine große Vorgänger, Band II" bezeichnet Garry 17...g6! als >einzige Widerlegung des Opfers Sd5. >Erstaunlich, dass die Möglichkeit h4-h5 nichts für Weiß danach bringt. (Ich habe >17...g6 nicht gesehen und Fritz 8 auch nicht!). > >Shredders obige Variante 17...g6 18.Tde1! (am stärksten - Kasparov) Ld8 19.Dh3 >Se5! 20.Dh6 Lb6! empfielt Garry als vorteilhaft für Schwarz. Diese Widerlegung >wurde erst 2000 gefunden. > >Nichtsdestotrotz schreibt Garry: >"Tal stellte in dieser Partie wieder Probleme, die nach ihrem Schwierigkeitsgrad >vorne als die damalige Zeit waren." >Und noch: "Hätte anstatt Larsen ein moderner GM seines Niveaus gespielt, >meinetwegen Leko, ist es unklar, ob er alle Probleme nach Sd5?! lösen könnte". > >Als Aufgabe ist diese Stellung ungeeignet. > >Gruß, >Michael
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