Author: Uri Blass
Date: 05:45:31 06/16/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 16, 2005 at 08:05:05, Terry McCracken wrote: >On June 16, 2005 at 03:47:32, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On June 15, 2005 at 20:01:37, Terry McCracken wrote: >> >>>On June 15, 2005 at 19:38:27, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>> >>>>On June 15, 2005 at 19:16:50, Terry McCracken wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 15, 2005 at 18:50:31, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 15, 2005 at 11:04:17, GuyHaworth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2451 seems to think one can claim >>>>>>>a draw in a KRKB endgame. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>However, I thought the rule was that one could only do this if it was impossible >>>>>>>to mate the other side, even with co-operation. Well, Black can lose its B for >>>>>>>a start ... and maxDTC = 18 so there are one or two subtle wins for White >>>>>>>around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So are Chessbase wrong here? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>g >>>>>> >>>>>>Based on the following, chessbase "appears" to be wrong: >>>>>> >>>>>>"9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot >>>>>>occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. >>>>>>This immediately ends the game." >>>>>> >>>>>That should be scratched from any rule book. If it's a book draw, and both >>>>>parties know it, and both know they will draw, then the game should end as a >>>>>draw. I'd be mad as hell if I ask for draw and my opponent rufused knowing full >>>>>well it's a draw, and even more angry if the arbiter declined my logical >>>>>request. >>>> >>>>The way you combined the words "angry" and "logical" in the same sentence is >>>>certainly amusing, but it is not logical to expect a ruling at variance with the >>>>rules. >>> >>>Life is contradiction...I thought logical and angry might raise an eyebrow:) >>> >>>I'd fight such a ruling, I'd fight to change it. >>> >>>I'd hope most good players wouldn't be indecent enough to force me to play on in >>>a drawn ending just to wait for something very unlikely to happen or to simply >>>win on time. Tsk, Tsk! >>> >>>Trust me, I wouldn't do it, as it belittles me and chess. Of course I can't stop >>>people from being petty shmucks. >>> >>>Terry >> >>I already asked the same question because I play in tournament with 90+30 >>seconds increasement time control(no draw claims unlike 2 hours/40+ 1 hour for >>the rest of the game) and I thought about possible situation when one player try >>to use the fact that the opponent is tired to win obviously drawn position but >>draw that he can push a pawn every fifty moves to make the game very long(hoping >>that the tired opponent will lose on time because he needs to sleep). >> >>I read an opinion that in case that one player refuse to draw offer in obvious >>draw situation the referee can claim a draw based on unsportivic behaviour. >> >>I guess that possibles rules to use to justify it are: >> >>12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into >>disrepute. >>12.5 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner >>whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims or offers of a draw. >> >>Note that there is no comment that 12.5 includes refusing to a draw offer when >>it is an obvious draw but the referee can decide that it includes it. >> >>Uri > >Thanks Uli...Maybe that 9.6 rule can be challenged by 12.1, however we need a >rule to add to 9.6 so there can be no waffling. > >It isn't that uncommon when players are down to say an obvious draw RKRK and one >player has more time on his clock refuses to draw. It really is bad form and >it shouldn't be permitted. > >I suppose one could argue over RKRB, but only if you happen to have one of those >rare positions that can win, otherwise a draw should be the result and the >opponent should comply, and we need a rule to make him or her comply. > >IMO > >Terry The problem is that you cannot decide that it is allowed to claim a draw in every tablebases draw because the opponent may blunder. KR vs KB may be simple for GM's but it is not simple for every player. Here is a possible line that there is a practical chance that weaker players may blunder and go into it Of course 107...Ke8 is a blunder and 107...Kc8 is a tablebase draw but all the idea of chess is that players can blunder(otherwise all the game will end in the same result) and it is unfair not to play and give the opponent the chance to blunder when you are not sure that he cannot blunder. I think also that the chance to blunder is not only dependent only on rating and I think that the player who claims a draw should at least explain by words what is the strategy to draw in order to get it(in case that the opponent has the advantage). [D]4R3/k7/2K5/8/8/6b1/8/8 w - - 0 101 101. Re7+ Kb8 102. Kb6 Kc8 103. Kc6 Kd8 104. Rh7 Bf2 105. Kd6 Ke8 106. Ke6 Kd8 107. Rd7+ Ke8 108. Rd2 Be3 109. Re2 Bh6 110. Rh2 Bg7 111. Ra2 Kd8 112. Ra8+ Kc7 113. Ra7+ Kc6 114. Rxg7 * Uri
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