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Subject: Re: MTD(f)

Author: Vasik Rajlich

Date: 03:14:17 06/18/05

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On June 17, 2005 at 21:09:49, Antonio Dieguez wrote:

>
>>>Yes. However I remember what Ernst Heinz said to me once: "fail hard läuft
>>>einfach besser". Seems not really logical - but I guess, he has a point. Perhaps
>>>the point is, that it is much easier, to have some subtle bug in fail soft
>>>search. alpha-beta is not really forgiving here - it will not crash with such
>>>bugs, just not perform as good as it should (perhaps only in few positions).
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, that's a pretty mysterious statement. I see no reason to ever fail hard. I
>>don't even see how fail-soft is more bug-prone.
>
>one of the changes i did in last versions of my engine was changing from
>fail-hard to fail-soft, that's partly why i bugfixed it twice (besides
>incompetence..) because i wasn't carefull when returning a score below alpha.
>
>The closer you are from something like, for example:
>
>SortMoves();
>then loop in a for trough the moves
>
>the harder to have a bug, but if you have something more bloated or bad coded
>you could not even see that in some place you aren't setting the score below
>alpha or doing it incorrectly. When discarding a move you want to set its score
>the lower possible too, so you have to do more work. May be is a basic mistake,
>but that would do for being "more bug-prone".
>Just my 1 cent. I could be absolutely wrong as always.

BTW - normal fail-soft doesn't mean doing more work to get a softer value. It
just means returning it if it happens to exist.

I have some ideas for an "ultra-fail-soft", where you would voluntarily do more
work in some cases to get a softer value. Combined with MTD (f), this could
potentially combine the strong points of PVS and MTD (f).

I can try to explain this in more detail but at the moment I don't think there
is a huge potential benefit there. Really the main thing in a chess program is
the eval, and maybe some selectivity in the search ..

Vas




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