Author: Uri Blass
Date: 22:06:33 06/22/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 22, 2005 at 23:33:05, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On June 22, 2005 at 21:49:25, Robin Smith wrote: > >>On June 22, 2005 at 16:17:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >>> >>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>>> >>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>>> >>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>>game where he has the black pieces. >>>> >>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>>> >>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>>a computer" logic. >>>> >>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>>> >>>>>But in an open position. >>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>>> >>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>>> >>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>>finds white better IMHO. >>>> >>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>>> >>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>>together. >>>>> >>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>>> >>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>>> >>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>>all over the board. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>>looks OK to me. >>>>> >>>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>>"significantly better". >>>> >>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>>> >>>>-Robin >>> >>> >>>Again, let me remind you that I qualified my response to "knowing this is a >>>computer vs human, black is exposing himself to difficulty." >> >>That is _not_ what you said. If that _had_ been what you said I would have >>agreed. But your original statements were stronger. Here are some actual quotes: > >Here is _the_ actual quote: > >"efine "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. > >In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. He isn't lost, but he >is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. But in an open position. >And he just has no chance in that kind of position. I do not agree with the last part. white advantage is very small if black plays cxd4 so saying that he has no chance only because the position is open position is wrong. Fruit says 0.35/18 for white after cxd4 Here is the analysis New game, 2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/4Np1b/3pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fruit 2.1: 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 ² (0.45) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Nc6 = (0.10) Depth: 2/12 00:00:00 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Nc6 d3 = (-0.06) Depth: 3/12 00:00:00 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Nc6 d3 4.Qc4 = (-0.06) Depth: 4/12 00:00:00 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 Rc2 5.f3 = (-0.06) Depth: 5/16 00:00:00 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bg3 Rc2 ³ (-0.30) Depth: 6/16 00:00:00 72kN 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bg3 Rc2 6.Rb7 Rxa2 = (-0.23) Depth: 7/17 00:00:00 143kN 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.g4 Be8 7.gxf5 Nxf2 = (-0.18) Depth: 8/20 00:00:00 279kN 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.f3 Nc3 7.Rb6 = (-0.16) Depth: 9/21 00:00:00 583kN 2.Bxc8 Qxc8 3.Qxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.f3 Nc3 7.Rb6 Ba3 = (0.11) Depth: 10/30 00:00:02 1550kN 2.Bxc8 Bxe5 3.Bxf5 d3 4.Qc6 d2 5.Bxd2 Nxd2 6.Rxe5 Nxb1 7.Bxb1 Qd1+ 8.Kh2 Qxb1 9.Rxh5 Rxf2 µ (-0.78) Depth: 11/30 00:00:04 3495kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.f3 Nc3 7.Rb7 f4 8.Nc4 Bc5 = (0.22) Depth: 11/36 00:00:09 8309kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.f3 Nc3 7.Rb6 Nb5 8.Rxa6 Kg7 9.Bg3 ² (0.28) Depth: 12/36 00:00:13 12794kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Rc2 6.f3 Nd2 7.Rb7 Kg8 8.Rd7 Bc7 9.f4 Bxe5 10.fxe5 ² (0.35) Depth: 13/36 00:00:24 22711kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Kg8 6.g4 Bg6 7.Rb6 Bxe5 8.Bxe5 d3 9.Rxa6 d2 10.Rd1 fxg4 11.hxg4 Rc2 ² (0.42) Depth: 14/38 00:00:49 45580kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Kg8 6.g4 Bg6 7.Nxg6 Bxh2+ 8.Kxh2 hxg6 9.Red1 Rc4 10.Kg1 Nc3 11.Rb8+ Kf7 12.Rb7+ Ke6 ² (0.36) Depth: 15/41 00:01:20 75511kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Kg8 6.g4 Bg6 7.Nxg6 Bxh2+ 8.Kxh2 hxg6 9.Red1 Nc3 10.Rbc1 Rc4 11.Kg2 Kf7 12.Rd3 ² (0.37) Depth: 16/47 00:02:55 170142kN 2.Qxc8 Qxc8 3.Bxc8 Rxc8 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bh2 Kg8 6.g4 Bg6 7.Nxg6 Bxh2+ 8.Kxh2 hxg6 9.Red1 Rd8 10.Rb7 d3 11.f3 Nc5 12.Rc7 Rd5 ² (0.41) Depth: 17/49 00:05:51 336926kN 2.Qxc8 Qf6 3.Qd7 Be8 4.Nf7+ Bxf7 5.Bxf7 Rxf7 6.Qc8+ Rf8 7.Qc4 Qe5 8.g3 Qa5 9.Rd1 Be5 10.Rb7 Nd6 11.Qb4 Qxa2 12.Bg5 ² (0.35) Depth: 18/54 00:15:40 901710kN (, 23.06.2005) Uri
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