Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:08:24 06/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 23, 2005 at 17:13:16, Robin Smith wrote: >On June 23, 2005 at 16:43:19, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On June 23, 2005 at 15:53:46, Robin Smith wrote: >> >>>On June 23, 2005 at 14:57:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On June 23, 2005 at 11:29:32, Robin Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 09:39:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 03:37:51, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 16:20:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 13:51:40, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 03:10:00, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>>>>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>>>>>>>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>>>>>>>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>>>>>>>>>game where he has the black pieces. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>>>>>>>>>a computer" logic. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>But in an open position. >>>>>>>>>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>>>>>>>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>>>>>>>>>finds white better IMHO. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>>>>>>>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>>>>>>>>>together. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>>>>>>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>>>>>>>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>You don´t have a clue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>And you do? :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>It´s always easy to sacrifice the exchange of others. In order to play this >>>>>>>>>>sacrifice you have to calculate correctly some very concrete lines. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Of course. That is obvious and I never said otherwise. All I said was that black >>>>>>>>>is OK if he plays cxd4 instead of Rc7. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>For example 24.Bxc8 Bxe5 ( The ending after 24...Qxc8 is very difficult to play >>>>>>>>>>for black) 25.Bxf5 d3 24.Qc6 d2 27.Bxd2 Nxd2 28.Rxe5 Nxb1 29.Bxb1 Qd1+ 30.Kh2 >>>>>>>>>>Qxb1 31.Qd6 Kg8 32.Rxh5 Qxa2 = and the position after 25.Qxc8 Qf6 26.Qc4 Qxe5 >>>>>>>>>>27.g3 is very difficult to play for black. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Definitely not the typ of position you want to play against a computer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I agreed this is not the type of position a human wants to be in in another >>>>>>>>>post. Did you read it before you shot off your mouth? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Therefore Adams Rc7 is a completely understandable decision. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I agree that Adams decision was understandable. I never said otherwise. It was >>>>>>>>>also a mistake, that's all; an understandable mistake. I have always agreed that >>>>>>>>>by this point Adams was in the type of position that is hard for a human to >>>>>>>>>play. That does not mean he made mistakes earlier. It is easier for white to >>>>>>>>>create open, messy positions that are hard for a human to play than it is for >>>>>>>>>black to prevent it, so just because it happens does not mean Adams made >>>>>>>>>mistakes prior to getting into such a position. Hyrda won because Hydra played >>>>>>>>>well, not because Adams "blundered" or made "outright stupid" choices or "GM >>>>>>>>>Adams missed this move". I think it is disrespectful to GM Adams when people say >>>>>>>>>such things, especially since Adams _didn't_ blunder. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I'll say it again. You can throw high, fast and outside to a big hitter, and >>>>>>>>when he slaps it over the fence, you can say "good shot". Or you can say "lousy >>>>>>>>pitch." In this game, it was a lousy pitch by Adams. If he chooses to avoid >>>>>>>>anti-computer type chess, that's fine, and no it isn't a blunder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Then why in http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?432636 did you say >>>>>>>"He was guilty of a different type of blunder. Namely of playing 1. ... e5 >>>>>>>against the computer." Was it a blunder or not? Have you changed your position >>>>>>>so that now we agree? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>> >>>>>>No. It was a mistake, or a blunder, or a foolhardy opening choice. You pick >>>>>>the description. But it was clearly the wrong approach to playing a computer. >>>>>>Anyone that has played them often will say the same thing... >>>>>> >>>>>>I don't see why this turns into an argument when the basic premise is so well >>>>>>understood by so many... >>>>> >>>>>Bob, believe it or not I understand the desirability of keeping the position >>>>>closed. Over and over again I have agreed with that. But there is a second basic >>>>>premise, also understood by so many ... play openings you know. You keep not >>>>>addressing that. >>>>> >>>>>-Robin >>>>> >>>> >>>>There is nothing to address then. Let 'im keep playing 1. e4 e5. He has lost >>>>both of those as black, in sterling fashion. He can continue to do so, or he >>>>can decide to vary as Kasparov and others have when playing computers. We know >>>>what sticking with e5 is going to produce. We know the computer is not going to >>>>change. So either he does, or he goes down in flames. Which would you >>>>suggest??? >>> >>>If I were to suggest something to Adams, it would be for him to play the Caro. >>>At least he has played it on occaision, so it is not completely unfamiliar. But >>>if he does opt for 1...e5 I won't hurl insults at him, implying he is stupid, as >>>you have done. If he plays 1...e5 I would assume that he is more comfortable >>>playing such openings against computers than he is playing other openings. All >>>the GMs practice with computers these days. Do you honestly belive you know >>>better than Adams what openings he does best against computers? >> >> >>If you can show double king pawn games where GMs on the black side do well >>against _strong_ computers, you will have made your point. > >Fair enough. How about: > >Deep Blue - Kasparov, 1996. Kasparov won. >Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 1. An easy draw for Kramnik >Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 3. Kramnik won. >Kasparov - X3D Fritz, 2003, game 2. Even though Kasparov lost this game he was >in a _superior_ and _relatively closed_ position when he blundered away at least >an easy draw (with some _winning_ chances) on move 32. > >Is that enough? > >-Robin > How about listing _all_ such games? Might there be a _different_ overall conclusion based on all e4 e5 games, rather than cherry-picking one here and there? >>Until then, Bob has made his point, IMHO, and the recent games are eloquent >>testimony to that fact. >> >>> >>>-Robin >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But it _is_ a >>>>>>>>mistake. You play to your opponent's weaknesses, not to his strength, for max >>>>>>>>advantage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>>>>>>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>>>>>>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>>>>>>>>>all over the board. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>>>>>>>>>looks OK to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>>>>>>>>>"significantly better". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>>>>>>>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>-Robin
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