Author: Terry McCracken
Date: 22:09:08 06/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 24, 2005 at 00:45:50, Matthew Hull wrote: >On June 23, 2005 at 23:08:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On June 23, 2005 at 17:13:16, Robin Smith wrote: >> >>>On June 23, 2005 at 16:43:19, Matthew Hull wrote: >>> >>>>On June 23, 2005 at 15:53:46, Robin Smith wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 14:57:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 11:29:32, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 09:39:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 03:37:51, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 16:20:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 13:51:40, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 03:10:00, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>>>>>>>>>>>game where he has the black pieces. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>>>>>>>>>>>a computer" logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But in an open position. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>finds white better IMHO. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>>>>>>>>>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>together. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>>>>>>>>>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>You don´t have a clue. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>And you do? :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>It´s always easy to sacrifice the exchange of others. In order to play this >>>>>>>>>>>>sacrifice you have to calculate correctly some very concrete lines. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Of course. That is obvious and I never said otherwise. All I said was that black >>>>>>>>>>>is OK if he plays cxd4 instead of Rc7. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>For example 24.Bxc8 Bxe5 ( The ending after 24...Qxc8 is very difficult to play >>>>>>>>>>>>for black) 25.Bxf5 d3 24.Qc6 d2 27.Bxd2 Nxd2 28.Rxe5 Nxb1 29.Bxb1 Qd1+ 30.Kh2 >>>>>>>>>>>>Qxb1 31.Qd6 Kg8 32.Rxh5 Qxa2 = and the position after 25.Qxc8 Qf6 26.Qc4 Qxe5 >>>>>>>>>>>>27.g3 is very difficult to play for black. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Definitely not the typ of position you want to play against a computer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I agreed this is not the type of position a human wants to be in in another >>>>>>>>>>>post. Did you read it before you shot off your mouth? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Therefore Adams Rc7 is a completely understandable decision. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I agree that Adams decision was understandable. I never said otherwise. It was >>>>>>>>>>>also a mistake, that's all; an understandable mistake. I have always agreed that >>>>>>>>>>>by this point Adams was in the type of position that is hard for a human to >>>>>>>>>>>play. That does not mean he made mistakes earlier. It is easier for white to >>>>>>>>>>>create open, messy positions that are hard for a human to play than it is for >>>>>>>>>>>black to prevent it, so just because it happens does not mean Adams made >>>>>>>>>>>mistakes prior to getting into such a position. Hyrda won because Hydra played >>>>>>>>>>>well, not because Adams "blundered" or made "outright stupid" choices or "GM >>>>>>>>>>>Adams missed this move". I think it is disrespectful to GM Adams when people say >>>>>>>>>>>such things, especially since Adams _didn't_ blunder. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I'll say it again. You can throw high, fast and outside to a big hitter, and >>>>>>>>>>when he slaps it over the fence, you can say "good shot". Or you can say "lousy >>>>>>>>>>pitch." In this game, it was a lousy pitch by Adams. If he chooses to avoid >>>>>>>>>>anti-computer type chess, that's fine, and no it isn't a blunder. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Then why in http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?432636 did you say >>>>>>>>>"He was guilty of a different type of blunder. Namely of playing 1. ... e5 >>>>>>>>>against the computer." Was it a blunder or not? Have you changed your position >>>>>>>>>so that now we agree? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>No. It was a mistake, or a blunder, or a foolhardy opening choice. You pick >>>>>>>>the description. But it was clearly the wrong approach to playing a computer. >>>>>>>>Anyone that has played them often will say the same thing... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't see why this turns into an argument when the basic premise is so well >>>>>>>>understood by so many... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Bob, believe it or not I understand the desirability of keeping the position >>>>>>>closed. Over and over again I have agreed with that. But there is a second basic >>>>>>>premise, also understood by so many ... play openings you know. You keep not >>>>>>>addressing that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There is nothing to address then. Let 'im keep playing 1. e4 e5. He has lost >>>>>>both of those as black, in sterling fashion. He can continue to do so, or he >>>>>>can decide to vary as Kasparov and others have when playing computers. We know >>>>>>what sticking with e5 is going to produce. We know the computer is not going to >>>>>>change. So either he does, or he goes down in flames. Which would you >>>>>>suggest??? >>>>> >>>>>If I were to suggest something to Adams, it would be for him to play the Caro. >>>>>At least he has played it on occaision, so it is not completely unfamiliar. But >>>>>if he does opt for 1...e5 I won't hurl insults at him, implying he is stupid, as >>>>>you have done. If he plays 1...e5 I would assume that he is more comfortable >>>>>playing such openings against computers than he is playing other openings. All >>>>>the GMs practice with computers these days. Do you honestly belive you know >>>>>better than Adams what openings he does best against computers? >>>> >>>> >>>>If you can show double king pawn games where GMs on the black side do well >>>>against _strong_ computers, you will have made your point. >>> >>>Fair enough. How about: >>> >>>Deep Blue - Kasparov, 1996. Kasparov won. >>>Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 1. An easy draw for Kramnik >>>Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 3. Kramnik won. >>>Kasparov - X3D Fritz, 2003, game 2. Even though Kasparov lost this game he was >>>in a _superior_ and _relatively closed_ position when he blundered away at least >>>an easy draw (with some _winning_ chances) on move 32. >>> >>>Is that enough? >>> >>>-Robin >>> >> >> >> >> >>How about listing _all_ such games? Might there be a _different_ overall >>conclusion based on all e4 e5 games, rather than cherry-picking one here and >>there? > > >Here are the opening stats for scrappy (Crafty versus humans only) losses in the >last year or so (opening code and # of games): > >Scrappy losses playing the white pieces >A02 1 >A40 1 >B07 1 >C02 2 >A03 5 >Scrappy losses playing the black pieces >A00 1 >A05 1 >A25 1 >A46 1 >C41 1 >C45 1 >D45 1 >D85 1 >E15 1 >E70 1 >E92 1 >A79 2 >B22 2 >C42 2 >D02 2 >D10 2 > > > You're quite a "brown-noser" aren't you? And you told me Authority didn't carry weight with you!? I think Robin made his point and I wouldn't put as much stock in games such as these as there is no impetus for the IMs/GMs to win, other than pride. The T/C are very important too, so I hope you selected 120 standard. Another thing, people are often put off of seeing openings listed as A00 down through the list. Oh sorry, you know soooo much more than I or Robin or just about anyone you disagree with. We have names for people like you but it would get me banned and that would make you so terribly happy, so I won't accommodate you. > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>Until then, Bob has made his point, IMHO, and the recent games are eloquent >>>>testimony to that fact. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>-Robin >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>But it _is_ a >>>>>>>>>>mistake. You play to your opponent's weaknesses, not to his strength, for max >>>>>>>>>>advantage. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>all over the board. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>looks OK to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"significantly better". >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>>>>>>>>>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin
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