Author: Matthew Hull
Date: 22:30:02 06/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 24, 2005 at 01:09:08, Terry McCracken wrote: >On June 24, 2005 at 00:45:50, Matthew Hull wrote: > >>On June 23, 2005 at 23:08:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On June 23, 2005 at 17:13:16, Robin Smith wrote: >>> >>>>On June 23, 2005 at 16:43:19, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 15:53:46, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 14:57:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 11:29:32, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 09:39:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On June 23, 2005 at 03:37:51, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 16:20:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 13:51:40, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On June 22, 2005 at 03:10:00, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 23:00:37, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 18:36:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 16:44:21, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 15:30:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:19:44, Robin Smith wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:11:23, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On June 21, 2005 at 14:04:37, Ted Summers wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To sum it up " He played a drawish opening in a tactic way. " Not a good idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>when computers are able to hang with the best and proving themself as better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than humans in open tactical positions. However I still think GM Adams can pull >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it together and Win or Draw this match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D] r2q1rk1/1pp3pp/p2b4/nP1p1p1b/2PPn3/3B1N1P/P1QN1PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Having reached this position, we seemed to be watching the beginning of the end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for Adams in the first game but hopefully not the match. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>C4! was a killer positional shot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>c4 was a good move, but hardly a "killer". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It seems clear GM Adams missed this move when he played Na5. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps Adams miissed it, but it hardly seems "clear", since Black is still OK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>afterwards. His loss happened later. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The problem here is that the kingside is already a bit open. One does _not_, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a human, allow the computer to open _both_ sides of the board in the same game. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It invites a debacle such as this. Of course, he made a couple of tactical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>errors around the point where the rook on C8 was hanging, but he was already in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the wrong kind of position... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All the comps were suggesting the same moves as played by Hydra, so there was no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>real surprises from the white side, just black making an error here, an error >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>there, before long he fell off the rim of the canyon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is in my view far to general. Black was at least = uptil move 23.Be6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[D]2rq1r1k/6pp/p2bB3/2p1Np1b/3Pn3/7P/P1Q2PP1/1RB1R1K1 b - - 0 23 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Define "equal". Here I am considering the important detail that white is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>computer, black is a human. In that regard, black is _not_ equal up to move 23. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>By that logic Adams was already much worse after 1.e4 no matter what he did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let's face it, Hydra is stronger. Adams will probably be under presure in every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>game where he has the black pieces. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I don't believe black is anywhere near equal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>He is equal unless you use your "considering the important detail that white is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>a computer" logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>He isn't lost, but he is far from equal and is at best fighting for a draw. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But in an open position. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And he just has no chance in that kind of position. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>He was under presure, yes. That is a far cry from "has no chance". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But I would take white anywhere along the way in that game, as a human playing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>another human. And by the way, any move after the "knight to the rim" move >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>finds white better IMHO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Your opinion is wrong, unless perhaps you mean that white had a very slight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>advantage. That is the norm in chess, by the way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Adams played 23...Rc7 while 23...cxd4 looks like it holds everything nicely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>together. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Doesn't quite hold everything nicely together. The comps were at about +1 here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>already, went to +1.5 on the Rc7 move. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maybe Craqfty sees +1, but the top programs don't see anything near +1 until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>_after_ Rc7. Before Rc7 black was fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>You don´t have a clue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>And you do? :-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>It´s always easy to sacrifice the exchange of others. In order to play this >>>>>>>>>>>>>sacrifice you have to calculate correctly some very concrete lines. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Of course. That is obvious and I never said otherwise. All I said was that black >>>>>>>>>>>>is OK if he plays cxd4 instead of Rc7. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>For example 24.Bxc8 Bxe5 ( The ending after 24...Qxc8 is very difficult to play >>>>>>>>>>>>>for black) 25.Bxf5 d3 24.Qc6 d2 27.Bxd2 Nxd2 28.Rxe5 Nxb1 29.Bxb1 Qd1+ 30.Kh2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>Qxb1 31.Qd6 Kg8 32.Rxh5 Qxa2 = and the position after 25.Qxc8 Qf6 26.Qc4 Qxe5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>27.g3 is very difficult to play for black. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Definitely not the typ of position you want to play against a computer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I agreed this is not the type of position a human wants to be in in another >>>>>>>>>>>>post. Did you read it before you shot off your mouth? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Therefore Adams Rc7 is a completely understandable decision. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I agree that Adams decision was understandable. I never said otherwise. It was >>>>>>>>>>>>also a mistake, that's all; an understandable mistake. I have always agreed that >>>>>>>>>>>>by this point Adams was in the type of position that is hard for a human to >>>>>>>>>>>>play. That does not mean he made mistakes earlier. It is easier for white to >>>>>>>>>>>>create open, messy positions that are hard for a human to play than it is for >>>>>>>>>>>>black to prevent it, so just because it happens does not mean Adams made >>>>>>>>>>>>mistakes prior to getting into such a position. Hyrda won because Hydra played >>>>>>>>>>>>well, not because Adams "blundered" or made "outright stupid" choices or "GM >>>>>>>>>>>>Adams missed this move". I think it is disrespectful to GM Adams when people say >>>>>>>>>>>>such things, especially since Adams _didn't_ blunder. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I'll say it again. You can throw high, fast and outside to a big hitter, and >>>>>>>>>>>when he slaps it over the fence, you can say "good shot". Or you can say "lousy >>>>>>>>>>>pitch." In this game, it was a lousy pitch by Adams. If he chooses to avoid >>>>>>>>>>>anti-computer type chess, that's fine, and no it isn't a blunder. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Then why in http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?432636 did you say >>>>>>>>>>"He was guilty of a different type of blunder. Namely of playing 1. ... e5 >>>>>>>>>>against the computer." Was it a blunder or not? Have you changed your position >>>>>>>>>>so that now we agree? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>No. It was a mistake, or a blunder, or a foolhardy opening choice. You pick >>>>>>>>>the description. But it was clearly the wrong approach to playing a computer. >>>>>>>>>Anyone that has played them often will say the same thing... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I don't see why this turns into an argument when the basic premise is so well >>>>>>>>>understood by so many... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Bob, believe it or not I understand the desirability of keeping the position >>>>>>>>closed. Over and over again I have agreed with that. But there is a second basic >>>>>>>>premise, also understood by so many ... play openings you know. You keep not >>>>>>>>addressing that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-Robin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There is nothing to address then. Let 'im keep playing 1. e4 e5. He has lost >>>>>>>both of those as black, in sterling fashion. He can continue to do so, or he >>>>>>>can decide to vary as Kasparov and others have when playing computers. We know >>>>>>>what sticking with e5 is going to produce. We know the computer is not going to >>>>>>>change. So either he does, or he goes down in flames. Which would you >>>>>>>suggest??? >>>>>> >>>>>>If I were to suggest something to Adams, it would be for him to play the Caro. >>>>>>At least he has played it on occaision, so it is not completely unfamiliar. But >>>>>>if he does opt for 1...e5 I won't hurl insults at him, implying he is stupid, as >>>>>>you have done. If he plays 1...e5 I would assume that he is more comfortable >>>>>>playing such openings against computers than he is playing other openings. All >>>>>>the GMs practice with computers these days. Do you honestly belive you know >>>>>>better than Adams what openings he does best against computers? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>If you can show double king pawn games where GMs on the black side do well >>>>>against _strong_ computers, you will have made your point. >>>> >>>>Fair enough. How about: >>>> >>>>Deep Blue - Kasparov, 1996. Kasparov won. >>>>Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 1. An easy draw for Kramnik >>>>Deep Fritz - Kramnik 2002, game 3. Kramnik won. >>>>Kasparov - X3D Fritz, 2003, game 2. Even though Kasparov lost this game he was >>>>in a _superior_ and _relatively closed_ position when he blundered away at least >>>>an easy draw (with some _winning_ chances) on move 32. >>>> >>>>Is that enough? >>>> >>>>-Robin >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>How about listing _all_ such games? Might there be a _different_ overall >>>conclusion based on all e4 e5 games, rather than cherry-picking one here and >>>there? >> >> >>Here are the opening stats for scrappy (Crafty versus humans only) losses in the >>last year or so (opening code and # of games): >> >>Scrappy losses playing the white pieces >>A02 1 >>A40 1 >>B07 1 >>C02 2 >>A03 5 >>Scrappy losses playing the black pieces >>A00 1 >>A05 1 >>A25 1 >>A46 1 >>C41 1 >>C45 1 >>D45 1 >>D85 1 >>E15 1 >>E70 1 >>E92 1 >>A79 2 >>B22 2 >>C42 2 >>D02 2 >>D10 2 >> >> >> >You're quite a "brown-noser" aren't you? > >And you told me Authority didn't carry weight with you!? That's why I posted facts. > >I think Robin made his point and I wouldn't put as much stock in games such as >these as there is no impetus for the IMs/GMs to win, other than pride. The T/C >are very important too, so I hope you selected 120 standard. > >Another thing, people are often put off of seeing openings listed as A00 down >through the list. > >Oh sorry, you know soooo much more than I or Robin or just about anyone you >disagree with. > >We have names for people like you Uh, factual and logical. :) Thanks! >but it would get me banned and that would make >you so terribly happy, so I won't accommodate you. >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Until then, Bob has made his point, IMHO, and the recent games are eloquent >>>>>testimony to that fact. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-Robin >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>But it _is_ a >>>>>>>>>>>mistake. You play to your opponent's weaknesses, not to his strength, for max >>>>>>>>>>>advantage. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But then the next few moves were mostly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bad by black, turning this into a debacle. But if there were not so many open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>files, open diagonals, etc, black wouldn't have had to be worrying about tactics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all over the board. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One line could be 23...cxd4 24.Qxc8 Qf6 25.Qc4 Qxe5 26.Qa5 and black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>looks OK to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But white looks better to me there. Maybe not "winning better" but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"significantly better". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Try "very slightly better". Adams played well until Rc7. Hydra is very strong >>>>>>>>>>>>>>and kept putting the presure on and finally Adams made a mistake. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>-Robin
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