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Subject: Re: proposition Man vs Machine

Author: Rick Hagen

Date: 08:20:52 06/29/05

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On June 28, 2005 at 12:09:37, Eduard Nemeth wrote:

>Hello Rick!
>
>I am sorry, but I cannot answer in english all was I have in my mind, also
>german.

Schon gut, verstehe Deutsch, aber ich werde in Englisch antworten.. Die Deutsche
Grammatik ist für mich einen Alptreum :)

>
>Adams war nicht schlecht, aber er spielte "fast" so (nicht ganz) wie gegen
>seinen GM Kollegen. Sowas aber kann man gegen Computer nicht bringen, da geht
>man einfach unter - erst recht wenn man nicht genug vorbereitet ist (ich zB.
>würde für ein PC-Duell gegen einen GM füs Blitzen gegen Fritz, etwa 2 Wochen
>benötigen!).

You are right.
Adams played chess like he would play against anyone. (human)
I still give him kudos for that, despite his result.
His second game (draw) was a beautiful draw. Although a human would have played
...d3 before Adams could block it. (with his King)
About preparing against e.g. Fritz, you could prepare against it's book.
Like Kramnik did against D.Fritz. (one game was certainly home-prep. The game
where Fritz played Bf8??!)

>
>Wie hoch ich gegen hydra verlieren würde, das kann ich nicht sagen, ob 6-0 oder
>nur 5,5-0,5 oder evtl. nur 5-1 (womit die Traum-elo von hydra >3000 auch nicht
>mehr da wäre, (!) da ich zuletzt eine DWZ von nur 2099 hatte. ;).

3000 Elo for Hydra is something I don't believe in.
The stats are there, for sure, but against someone who knows how to play
anti-comp chess, this might change dramaticaly.
(2099 ist doch nicht so schlecht, mein höchstes FIDE war nur knapp über 2000.)


>
>Entscheidender aber wäre für mich der Partienverlauf, und da sage ich ganz
>ehrlich, dass ich mir kaum vorstellen kann, 2x in etwa 30 Zügen abgeschossen
>zu werden, erst recht dann nicht, wenn ich die weißen Steine führen würde!

Adams chose to play his well-known openings, like you've said before.
If he had chosen for instance the Stonewall, I doubt he would have lost that
quickly.
He might have lost, but not in 30 moves.

>

>Hydra würde sich da schon ganz schön die Zähne aufreiben um mich zu schlagen!
>
>:-)
>

I notice the smiley Eduard, but has Hydra been tested in closed positions in
this match?
Adams had the better position in his last game, and decided to go for a win with
c5. He could have chosen to go for a pawn-storm on the K-side much earlier,
still wonder what the outcome would have been. He could have easily drawn the
last game. Just watch the moves Hydra played...e.g. Re7...It was waiting for
Mickey to open the game, and he did..

>M. Adams aber ging durch seine GM-Schach-Strategie leider 2x in etwa 30 Zügen
>unter. Tja: Ich denke, das würde mir bei dieser Spielstufe so nicht passieren,
>mit richtiger Vorbereitung.

How would you prepare though?
Study it's past games? There aren't too many.
And the Hydra Team has the right (!) to change it's book, so preparing would
still be difficult.

>
>Allerdings muss man auch folgenden Aspekt noch berücksichtigen: Von Hydra wie
>sie jetzt da ist (!), gibt es gegen Menschen nur wenige Partien, die man
>studieren kann - oder wo bitte??

Yes Eduard :)
My point excactly.

>
>Wie Du - und jeder andere Schachspieler auch (auch Dr. Chrilly Donninger!) wißt,
>betreitet man sich vor einem match normal gegen seinen Gegner vor.
>
>Kasparov aber konnte das gegen Deep Blue genauso wenig tun wie nun Adams gegen
>die neue Hydra!
>
>Wie denn??
>
>Und: wer spielt schon _GERNE_ gegen ein Phantom? Normal keiner!

Yes, the point is how to prepare against a machine which hasn't played a lot of
games. (against humans)
And remember, the team can always change it's book.
It can program it to play 1.g4 or 1...,e5 against 1.d4 for example.
Pure anti-human book.
The only solution seems to be to find out it's weaknesses in it's play.
I've seen some of it's endgames vs Computers, which don't look very convincing.
Didn't Chrilly himself said that Shredder had the much better endgame?
Of course....you have to reach the endgame first.

>
>Fritz kennen wir!
>Shredder kennen wir!
>Junior kennen wir!
>Die neue "Hydra mit 32 Prozessoren" aber ist noch ein kleines Phantom!!

Jetz noch 32, aber es wird nicht lange dauern bis es 64 sind...
It's a big Phantom :)

>
>Erst wenn Hydra genug Partien gespielt hat, und man gegen Sie, sagen wir mal,
>freie Trainingspartien auf einem Server spielen könnte (!), erst dann kann man
>hydras Leistung gegen Menschen (nach so 100-200 Partien) etwa abschätzen - nach
>6 partien jedoch sicher nicht, weil der Mensch ein Wesen ist und kein Roboter!!
>
>Eduard.
>

Stimmt, and it was a match against a very good anti-human GM, not a specialized
anti-comp GM.
Still, to be honest: Hydras performance was pretty impressive.
It would be a tough match for anyone to get a 50% score.
Zor-Champ talked about a follow-up match against Kramnik or Topalov.
Kramnik won't do it, because he would like to prepare(!) like he did against
D.Fritz. That won't happen.
Topalov... he had a draw against Hydra once (Bilbao), but I really don't see him
doing it.
Other candidates like Anand, Leko... don't see it for the same reason.

Kasparov... why not?
He said he would only play for "fun", this could be his fun-match.
And in many ppl's eyes, he is still the best player around.

But we're running out of candidates pretty quick it seems.

Greetings,
RickH




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