Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:17:02 06/30/05
Go up one level in this thread
On June 30, 2005 at 07:09:54, Amir Ban wrote: >On June 29, 2005 at 16:44:58, Sandro Necchi wrote: > >>On June 29, 2005 at 12:19:48, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On June 28, 2005 at 15:37:12, Sandro Necchi wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>do you remember when we lost to Junior in 2001 WCCC (I think) a won game only >>>>because the program understimated a passed pawn? >>>> >>> >>>What passed pawn? You mean king safety. This should refresh your memory. >> >>Here are the comments to refresh your memory. The king safety comes at the very >>end. >> >>The problem is not correct use of passed pawns and pieces exchange on these >>situations. >> > >This game is about king safety, and nothing else. Junior was able to get out of >very bad position and go on to win, by capitalizing on the fact that Shredder >did not sense that his king was in danger, until it was too late (at one point, >Shredder failed low from +6 to 0, maybe the biggest fail-low in WCCC history). > >Before that, Junior had already for several moves level or plus scores, based on >its evaluation of the king attack. > >So the only way passed pawns may be connected to this is if Shredder made the >mistake of thinking they are relevant here. Junior certainly didn't. > >Amir If Junior believes that passed pawns are not relevant why the evaluation of more than +3(almost +4 at small depths)? Note that +3 is evaluation based on only material and if you search deep enough it should be only +2. Note that black is not better after the game move Rb8 based on fruit's analysis of move 63. Fruit's evaluation seem to be more realistic than Junior's evaluation and you cannot blame fruit of not evaluating passed pawns(fruit is free source code and I did not read of cases when it disables passed pawn evaluation because it considers it as not important). Here is analysis by Junior9 and Fruit2.1 of 2 positions from the game: Deep Junior 7 - Shredder, WMCCC Maastricht 2001 [D]4r2k/7p/2q2P2/6P1/p2p1N1K/2b1p1P1/4B3/3Q4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Junior 9: 62...Qxf6 63.gxf6 d3 64.Qxd3 Bxf6+ 65.Kg4 Kg8 +- (4.77) Depth: 3 00:00:00 62...h5 63.f7 Rf8 64.Bxh5 -+ (-2.68) Depth: 3 00:00:00 62...h6 63.f7 Rf8 -+ (-3.28) Depth: 3 00:00:00 62...a3 63.f7 Rb8 -+ (-4.00) Depth: 3 00:00:00 62...Kg8 63.Qc2 -+ (-4.08) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1kN 62...Kg8 63.Bf3 Qb5 64.Bd5+ Kf8 65.f7 Re5 -+ (-3.57) Depth: 6 00:00:00 10kN 62...a3 63.Qb3 Ra8 64.Qa2 -+ (-4.33) Depth: 6 00:00:00 17kN 62...a3 63.Qb3 Bb2 64.Qf7 Rg8 65.Bc4 Qa8 66.Bd5 Qe8 67.Qxe8 Rxe8 -+ (-2.94) Depth: 9 00:00:01 2304kN 62...Rb8 63.f7 Kg7 64.Bf3 Qb5 65.Be2 Qa5 66.g6 hxg6 -+ (-3.89) Depth: 9 00:00:01 2343kN 62...Rb8 63.Bf3 Qb5 64.Qc2 a3 65.Bd5 Qb1 66.f7 -+ (-3.46) Depth: 12 00:00:03 6238kN 62...Rb8 63.Bd3 Rb2 64.Qh5 Rh2+ 65.Nh3 Qd7 66.Bf5 e2 67.Bxd7 e1Q 68.f7 Qf1 -+ (-3.02) Depth: 14 00:00:27 62941kN 62...Rf8 63.Bf3 Qd7 64.Bd5 Qf5 65.Be6 Qe5 66.f7 a3 67.Qc2 -+ (-3.05) Depth: 14 00:00:35 80426kN 62...Rf8 63.Bf3 Qd7 64.Bd5 Qf5 65.Be6 Qe4 66.Bd5 Qe5 67.Qh5 -+ (-3.02) Depth: 15 00:02:17 318194kN 62...Rf8 63.Bd3 Rf7 64.Qb1 Qb7 65.Qa2 Qb3 66.Qg2 Rb7 67.Bc4 Qb1 68.f7 Rb8 69.Qd5 -+ (-2.85) Depth: 16 00:04:11 576755kN (, 30.06.2005) Deep Junior 7 - Shredder, WMCCC Maastricht 2001 4r2k/7p/2q2P2/6P1/p2p1N1K/2b1p1P1/4B3/3Q4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Fruit 2.1: 62...Ba1 63.Qxa1 ³ (-0.29) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 62...Be1 63.Qxe1 ³ (-0.31) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 62...Bb2 -+ (-3.47) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 62...Bd2 -+ (-3.57) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 62...a3 -+ (-4.07) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 62...a3 63.Qb3 -+ (-3.74) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 62...a3 63.f7 Rb8 64.Qb3 -+ (-3.80) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00 62...a3 63.Qb3 Qh1+ 64.Kg4 Ra8 -+ (-3.65) Depth: 4/11 00:00:00 62...a3 63.Qb3 Ra8 64.f7 Qh1+ 65.Kg4 Qc6 -+ (-3.65) Depth: 5/18 00:00:00 62...a3 63.Qb3 Ra8 64.f7 Rf8 65.Nd5 Ra8 -+ (-3.56) Depth: 6/18 00:00:00 36kN 62...a3 63.Qb3 Ra8 64.f7 Qd6 65.Qe6 Bb4 66.Qe8+ Qf8 -+ (-3.45) Depth: 7/25 00:00:00 120kN 62...a3 63.Qb3 Rg8 64.Qxa3 Qh1+ 65.Kg4 Qh6 66.g6 Rxg6+ 67.Nxg6+ Qxg6+ 68.Kf3 Qxf6+ 69.Kg2 -+ (-2.99) Depth: 8/34 00:00:00 416kN 62...Rb8 63.Bf3 Qd7 64.g6 hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Qd3 Kh6 -+ (-3.38) Depth: 8/34 00:00:01 486kN 62...Rb8 63.Bf3 Qb5 64.Bd5 Rd8 65.Qh5 Rxd5 66.Qh6 Rxg5 67.Qxg5 -+ (-2.95) Depth: 9/34 00:00:01 813kN 62...Rf8 63.Bf3 Qd7 64.Be4 Re8 65.Bc2 Ra8 66.g6 d3 67.g7+ Kg8 -+ (-3.21) Depth: 9/34 00:00:01 1046kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 a3 64.Bd3 Rg8 65.Qb3 Qc7 66.Qxa3 Qe5 67.Kh3 Qxg5 -+ (-2.88) Depth: 10/34 00:00:04 3471kN 62...Rb8 63.Bf3 Qe8 64.Bd5 Rd8 65.f7 Qe7 66.Kg4 Qd7+ 67.Be6 Qc6 68.Bd5 -+ (-3.04) Depth: 10/34 00:00:05 3764kN 62...Rb8 63.Bf3 Qd6 64.Qxa4 Qe5 65.f7 Be1 66.Kh3 Rf8 67.g6 d3 68.Qd7 -+ (-2.14) Depth: 11/35 00:00:10 8294kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 Qc8 64.Bd3 Rf7 65.Qa2 Ra7 66.g6 Qd8 67.Qe6 hxg6 68.Nxg6+ Kh7 -+ (-2.58) Depth: 11/35 00:00:12 9594kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 Qc8 64.Bd3 Rf7 65.Qa2 Qd7 66.Bb5 Qb7 67.Bc6 Qb3 68.Qxa4 -+ (-2.32) Depth: 12/36 00:00:25 20040kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 a3 64.Bd3 e2 65.Bxe2 Bd2 66.Bg4 Bxf4 67.gxf4 Qg2 68.Be6 Qh2+ 69.Kg4 Qe2+ 70.Kf5 -+ (-1.94) Depth: 13/41 00:01:12 57574kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 a3 64.Bd3 e2 65.Bxe2 Bd2 66.Qa2 Bxf4 67.gxf4 Qd6 68.Kg3 d3 69.f7 h6 70.Qa1+ Kh7 -+ (-1.96) Depth: 14/42 00:03:03 146006kN 62...Rf8 63.Qb1 a3 64.Bd3 e2 65.Bxe2 Bd2 66.Qa2 Bxf4 67.gxf4 Qh1+ 68.Kg3 Qg1+ 69.Kh3 Qe3+ 70.Kg4 h5+ 71.Kf5 Qh3+ 72.Kg6 h4 -+ (-2.21) Depth: 15/51 00:05:27 263882kN 62...Rf8 63.Bf3 Qb5 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Rd8 66.Be6 Qc6 67.Nxc3 Qxe6 68.Nxa4 d3 69.g4 d2 70.Nc3 Rd4 -+ (-1.86) Depth: 16/51 00:11:48 577283kN Deep Junior 7 - Shredder, WMCCC Maastricht 2001 [D]1r5k/7p/2q2P2/6P1/p2p1N1K/2b1pBP1/8/3Q4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Junior 9: 63...Qxf3 64.Qxf3 Kg8 +- (1.85) Depth: 3 00:00:00 63...Qb5 64.f7 a3 -+ (-4.12) Depth: 3 00:00:00 63...Qb5 64.g6 hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Qc2 Kg8 -+ (-3.95) Depth: 6 00:00:00 10kN 63...Qb5 64.Qc2 a3 65.Bd5 Qb1 66.f7 -+ (-3.49) Depth: 9 00:00:00 447kN 63...Qb5 64.Bd5 e2 65.Qxe2 Qxe2 66.Nxe2 Rb5 67.Bc6 Ra5 68.Nxc3 dxc3 69.Be4 -+ (-3.13) Depth: 12 00:00:03 8243kN 63...Qe8 64.Qc2 -+ (-3.19) Depth: 12 00:00:05 13086kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Bb2 66.f7 Qe7 67.Qxa4 d3 68.Nf4 d2 69.Qc2 Qb4 70.g6 hxg6 -+ (-1.79) Depth: 15 00:01:19 193937kN 63...Qa6 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Rb4 66.f7 d3+ 67.Nf4 Bg7 68.Qc1 h6 69.gxh6 Qxh6+ 70.Kg4 Bb2 -+ (-2.12) Depth: 15 00:01:35 234450kN 63...Qa6 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Rb4 66.f7 d3+ 67.Nf4 Bg7 68.Qc1 h6 69.Qe3 hxg5+ 70.Kxg5 Qf6+ 71.Kg4 Rd4 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 16 00:03:09 453521kN, tb=1 63...Qa6 64.Be2 Qc8 65.Qxa4 Rb1 66.Bf3 Rb2 67.Be2 Rb4 68.Qa7 Rb7 69.Qa2 Qg8 70.Bc4 Qb8 71.g6 hxg6 72.Nxg6+ Kh7 -+ (-1.93) Depth: 17 00:05:46 808308kN, tb=2 (, 30.06.2005) Note that after 63...Qa6 63.Qc2 it seems that the position should be a draw. Deep Junior 7 - Shredder, WMCCC Maastricht 2001 1r5k/7p/2q2P2/6P1/p2p1N1K/2b1pBP1/8/3Q4 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Fruit 2.1: 63...Ba1 64.Bxc6 +- (7.23) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 63...Be1 64.Bxc6 +- (6.89) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 63...Bb4 64.Bxc6 +- (6.87) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 63...e2 64.Qxe2 -+ (-1.85) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 63...Qc4 -+ (-3.80) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 63...Qc4 64.Bd5 -+ (-3.49) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 63...Qc4 64.Bd5 Qa6 -+ (-3.35) Depth: 3/8 00:00:00 63...Qd7 64.Bd5 a3 -+ (-3.77) Depth: 3/8 00:00:00 63...Qd7 64.Bd5 a3 65.Qc2 -+ (-3.44) Depth: 4/10 00:00:00 63...Qd7 64.g6 hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Ne5 -+ (-3.40) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 63...Qa6 64.Bd5 a3 65.Qc2 Rb2 -+ (-3.48) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 63...Qa6 64.Be2 Qa5 65.Bc4 a3 66.Qc2 -+ (-3.40) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 47kN 63...Qa6 64.Be4 Rb2 65.Qh5 Rh2+ 66.Nh3 Rxh3+ 67.Kxh3 Qe6+ 68.Qg4 Qc4 -+ (-2.16) Depth: 7/26 00:00:00 138kN 63...Qd7 64.g6 hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Be4 Qb5 67.Ne5+ Kg8 -+ (-2.61) Depth: 7/26 00:00:00 160kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 Rb2 65.f7 Qc8 66.Qf1 Rh2+ 67.Nh3 Kg7 68.Qf6+ Kf8 -+ (-3.28) Depth: 7/26 00:00:01 211kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 Rd8 65.f7 Qe7 66.Kg4 Qd7+ 67.Be6 Qc6 68.Bd5 -+ (-3.04) Depth: 8/26 00:00:01 415kN 63...Qe8 64.g6 hxg6 65.Qh1 Rb5 66.Bc6 Qg8 67.Kg4+ Rh5 68.Nxh5 gxh5+ 69.Kxh5 -+ (-2.09) Depth: 9/28 00:00:01 1020kN 63...Qb5 64.g6 hxg6 65.Bd5 Kh7 66.Kg5 Qb1 67.Qg4 Qf5+ 68.Qxf5 gxf5 69.Kxf5 -+ (-2.86) Depth: 9/28 00:00:02 1564kN 63...Qb5 64.g6 hxg6 65.Nxg6+ Kh7 66.Ne7 Rg8 67.Nxg8 Kxg8 68.g4 d3 69.g5 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 10/33 00:00:03 2437kN 63...Qe8 64.g6 hxg6 65.Qh1 Rb5 66.Bd5 Rxd5 67.Nxd5 Qe5 68.Kg4+ Kg8 69.Qf3 Qh5+ 70.Kf4 -+ (-2.81) Depth: 10/33 00:00:03 2765kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 Rd8 65.f7 Qd7 66.Qc2 Qd6 67.Qxa4 Qe7 68.Qb5 Rc8 69.Kg4 -+ (-1.87) Depth: 11/39 00:00:07 5629kN 63...Qd6 64.Qxa4 Qc7 65.Kh3 Qc5 66.g6 hxg6 67.Nxg6+ Kh7 68.Be4 Qc8+ 69.g4 Qc7 70.Ne7+ Kh6 -+ (-1.88) Depth: 11/39 00:00:16 13396kN 63...Qd6 64.Bd5 Be1 65.Qxe1 Qb6 66.Qa1 Qb4 67.g6 hxg6 68.Kg4 Qb1 69.Qxd4 Qf5+ 70.Kh4 ± (0.94) Depth: 12/39 00:00:34 28415kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 Rd8 65.f7 Qd7 66.Qc2 Qd6 67.Qxa4 Rf8 68.Qb5 Bb4 69.Kh3 Bc3 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 12/39 00:00:38 31890kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Qe5 66.Nf4 Be1 67.Kg4 Qe3 68.Qd3 a3 69.g6 hxg6 70.Nxg6+ Kh7 -+ (-1.42) Depth: 13/42 00:00:54 44835kN 63...Qb5 64.Bd5 e2 65.Qxe2 Qxe2 66.Nxe2 Rb5 67.Bc6 Re5 68.Nf4 a3 69.Bd5 d3 70.Kg4 -+ (-1.92) Depth: 13/42 00:01:03 52837kN 63...Qb5 64.g6 d3 65.g7+ Kg8 66.Bd5+ Qxd5 67.Nxd5 e2 68.Qb1 Rxb1 69.Ne7+ Kf7 70.g8Q+ Kxf6 71.Nd5+ Ke5 72.Nf4 e1Q 73.Nxd3+ Kd4 74.Nxe1 Rxe1 75.Qd8+ Kc4 76.Qc7+ Kb4 77.Qf4+ Kb5 78.Qf5+ Kc4 79.Qxh7 ² (0.26) Depth: 14/56 00:02:34 130953kN 63...Qe8 64.Bd5 e2 65.Nxe2 Qe5 66.Nf4 Be1 67.Kg4 Qe3 68.Qd3 Qxd3 69.Nxd3 Bd2 70.Kf5 a3 µ (-1.19) Depth: 14/56 00:03:02 152568kN 63...Qe8 64.Qd3 Qf8 65.Be4 Rb2 66.Bxh7 Rh2+ 67.Kg4 Qe8 68.Ng6+ Kxh7 69.Ne7+ Kh8 70.Ng6+ Kh7 = (0.00) Depth: 15/56 00:07:14 363438kN 63...Qe8 64.Qd3 Qf8 65.Be4 Rb2 66.Bxh7 Rh2+ 67.Kg4 Qe8 68.Ng6+ Kxh7 69.Ne7+ Kh8 70.Ng6+ Kh7 = (0.00) Depth: 16/56 00:11:59 607279kN 63...Qe8 64.Qd3 Qf8 65.Be4 e2 66.Bxh7 Qf7 67.Ng6+ Kxh7 68.Ne5+ Kg8 69.Nxf7 e1Q 70.Qg6+ Kf8 71.Qg7+ Ke8 72.Qg8+ Kd7 73.Qxb8 Qh1+ 74.Kg4 Qd1+ 75.Kf4 Qf1+ 76.Ke4 Qe2+ 77.Kf5 Qd3+ 78.Kf4 Qf1+ = (0.00) Depth: 17/56 00:20:09 1027196kN
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