Author: Eelco de Groot
Date: 05:33:54 08/02/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 02, 2005 at 00:52:11, Eelco de Groot wrote:
>On August 01, 2005 at 15:16:55, Peter Berger wrote:
>
>>ROTFL - sorry for the subject line .. - hope I can still post sth of at least
>>limitted interest.
>>
>>1.) Toying around with Fruit 2.1 currently - that would be change no 1 - now
>>there is a free open source amateur engine that is just as strong as the
>>strongest commercials on ordinary PCs . No, that's no news anymore. But just as
>>others I had to see it for myself, despite various previous reports.
>>
>>2.) Second one is about openings. Dann Corbit built an interesting book for
>>Fruit IMHO. I guess it's completely automated, but he chose a good point to
>>leave book, usually about 2 or 3 moves before known theory ends, with something
>>like 10-15 moves of opening theory on average. And in several games Fruit finds
>>interesting and valid alternatives to grandmaster analysis.
>>
>>Just a little example ( my sources might be slightly dated as I don't play the
>>Ruy from either side).
>>
>>[Event "50 3"]
>>[Site "Centrino 1.6- PIV 3.2"]
>>[Date "2005.08.01"]
>>[Round "11"]
>>[White "Junior 9.0.0.3"]
>>[Black "Fruit 2.1"]
>>[ECO "C80"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>
>>1. e4 {0s} e5 {+0.01/1 1s} 2. Nf3 {3s} Nc6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>3. Bb5 {2s} a6 {+0.01/1 0s} 4. Ba4 {2s} Nf6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>5. O-O {3s} Nxe4 {+0.01/1 0s} 6. d4 {2s} b5 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>7. Bb3 {2s} d5 {+0.01/1 0s} 8. dxe5 {3s} Be6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>9. Nbd2 {3s} Nc5 {+0.01/1 0s} 10. c3 {3s} d4 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>11. Ng5 {3s} dxc3 {+0.01/1 0s} 12. Nxe6 {4s} fxe6 {+0.01/1
>>0s} 13. bxc3 {4s} Qd3 {+0.01/1 0s} 14. Bc2 {4s} Qxc3
>>{+0.42/13 1:16m} 15. Nb3 {3s}
>>
>>A famous line of the Open Ruy known to be busted (11. .. dxc3?!) - that's
>>Kasparov-Anand, New York PCA WCh (10) 1995, 14. Bc2 is ! and 15. Nb3!! . NCO and
>>ECO have a look at 15. ...Nxb3 and 15. ...Rd8 and prove a clear white advantage.
>>Fruit, ever sceptical, just takes on e5 (and how come this move doesn't even get
>>mentioned?).
>>
>>[D]r3kb1r/2p3pp/p1n1p3/1pn1P3/8/1Nq5/P1B2PPP/R1BQ1RK1 b kq -
>>
>
>
>Pro Deo 1.1 Vulcan {9k10i} would have gobbled up the pawn too, but prefers to do
>that with the Knight. No deep strategic considerations I suppose, and I think
>Black is taking some chances taking the pawn right now. The White King is
>sitting comfortably in his castle warming his feet at the fire, sipping some
>good Spanish wine perhaps while his colleague from the other side is rather in
>the cold, no matter whether he stays in the center or moves to his left castle
>or his right castle.. After 15 minutes the evaluation is already not equal
>anymore. Qc3xe5 is number thirteen on the list by then. But I guess your point
>is that Kasparov's play against Anand is not exactly refuted by Fruit's opening,
>but Black deviates just in time here from the 1992 game... I have not checked
>what Vulcan would play confronted with Qxe5!?
>
>00:00:00.3 1,96 1 1968 Nxb3 Qh5+ Kd7 Qf7+ Be7 Bxb3 Qxa1
>00:00:00.3 3,29 2 4617 Nxb3 axb3 Qxa1 Qh5+ g6 Bxg6+ Kd8
>00:00:00.3 0,87 3 9027 Nxb3 Bxb3 Rd8 Qg4
>00:00:00.3 0,98 3 12767 Nxe5 Bd2 Qb2
>00:00:00.3 1,32 3 16650 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5
>00:00:00.3 0,95 4 19379 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Qf3
>00:00:00.4 0,91 5 46743 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Qf3 Rd5
>00:00:00.4 0,87 6 80799 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Qf3 Nd4 Nxd4 Rxd4
>00:00:00.5 0,66 7 193273 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Re1 Qd5 Bf4 Nxb3 Qxd5
>00:00:00.9 0,45 8 661030 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Re1 Qd5 Bf4 Be7 Qxd5 Rxd5
>00:00:02.0 0,51 8 1794728 Nxe5 Bd2 Qc4 Qh5+ Nf7 Nxc5 Qxc5 Qxc5 Bxc5 Rad1
>00:00:05.1 0,37 9 4995726 Nxe5 Be3 Nxb3 axb3 Rd8 Qe2 Bd6 Rxa6
>00:00:10.8 0,19 10 11126891 Nxe5 Be3 Rd8 Bd4 Qc4
>00:00:15.9 0,22 10 16981113 Nxb3 axb3 Qxa1 Qf3 Nd8 Qxa8 Qxe5
>00:00:30.7 0,13 11 33760108 Nxb3 Bxb3 Rd8 Qg4 Qxe5 Bf4 Rd4 Qf3 Qe4 Qxe4 Rxe4
>00:01:16.4 0,00 12 87001311 Nxb3 Bxb3 Qxa1 Qh5+ g6 Qf3 Nd8 Rd1
>00:01:45.7 0,08 12 122773787 Nxe5 Bf4 Bd6 Rc1 O-O-O Be4 Qb2 Nxc5 Bxc5
>00:05:55.0 0,03 13 422795898 Nxe5 Bd2 Qc4 Be3 Ncd3 f4 Nb2 Qh5+ Nf7 Bxh7 Qd5 Qg6
>00:15:51.9 -0,08 14 1143840139 Nxe5 Bd2 Qc4 Nxc5
I let Pro Deo Vulcan {9k10i} testversion calculate longer and just now it comes
with the following (7 hours 41 minutes), Athlon 3200+, evaluations from Black's
point of view
00:54:36.7 -0,48 15 3940673939 Nxe5 Bd2
01:52:47.1 -0,30 15 3828937285 Nxb3 Bxb3 Rd8 Qh5+ g6
02:25:48.1 -0,13 15 1963521336 Rd8 Qh5+
03:52:56.0 -0,69 16 4048985325 Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Re1 Qf6 Nxc5 Rxd2
04:20:22.8 -0,41 16 1755002296 Nxb3 Bxb3 Qxa1 Qh5+ g6 Qf3 Nd8
07:41:27.6 -0,36 16 3646376805 Qxe5 Re1
It seems I have to give Fruit 2.1 some more credit for playing its novelty
15..Qc3xe5! What exactly the new PV from Vulcan is I'm not sure though, if it
would be the line as in the game it would be a transposition of the first PV at
16 ply, Rd8 Bd2 Qxe5 Re1 Qf6 Nxc5 Rxd2 and that got an eval of -0.69 after 3
hours 52 min. If that line is more or less forced, what does Vulcan see now that
it did not see in the transposition?
Maybe a nice position to do more analysis?
Eelco
>
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>>Whatever the absolute thruth, Fruit got very decent compensation for the
>>exchange in the game and in fact had little trouble to reach a major advantage
>>against the world champion, who lacked counterplay and pawn levers. Most moves
>>even looked very obvious. Similar happened in several other Fruit games I have
>>watched. I am getting more and more sceptical of classical opening books.
>>
>>--
>>
>>Unrelated, still .. - Fruit probably blew the huge advantage it reached later
>>as it allowed transformation to a drawish endgame.
>>
>>[D]5b2/8/5k2/p4r2/Bp3K2/2p5/P4P2/4R3 w - -
>>
>>Here Junior played 49. Kg4 which should be ?? , while 49. Kg3 probably holds. I
>>can only explain with wrong knowledge about bishop with opposite colour endings,
>>and it's certainly not the first example from Junior I have seen covering this
>>theme. I don't think a human would consider giving up the pawn on f2 .
>>
>>Everything with a huge grain of salt as usual :) .
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>[Event "50 3"]
>>[Site "Centrino 1.6- PIV 3.2"]
>>[Date "2005.08.01"]
>>[Round "11"]
>>[White "Junior 9.0.0.3"]
>>[Black "Fruit 2.1"]
>>[ECO "C80"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>
>>1. e4 {0s} e5 {+0.01/1 1s} 2. Nf3 {3s} Nc6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>3. Bb5 {2s} a6 {+0.01/1 0s} 4. Ba4 {2s} Nf6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>5. O-O {3s} Nxe4 {+0.01/1 0s} 6. d4 {2s} b5 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>7. Bb3 {2s} d5 {+0.01/1 0s} 8. dxe5 {3s} Be6 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>9. Nbd2 {3s} Nc5 {+0.01/1 0s} 10. c3 {3s} d4 {+0.01/1 0s}
>>11. Ng5 {3s} dxc3 {+0.01/1 0s} 12. Nxe6 {4s} fxe6 {+0.01/1
>>0s} 13. bxc3 {4s} Qd3 {+0.01/1 0s} 14. Bc2 {4s} Qxc3
>>{+0.42/13 1:16m} 15. Nb3 {3s} Qxe5 {+0.26/14 4:13m} 16. Re1
>>{1:42m} Rd8 {-0.18/15 8s} 17. Bd2 {17s} Qf6 {-0.24/14
>>1:17m} 18. Nxc5 {1:45m} Rxd2 {-0.21/15 0s} 19. Ne4 {2:32m
>>(Txe6+)} Rxd1 {+0.04/16 1:21m} 20. Nxf6+ {47s} gxf6
>>{+0.07/17 57s} 21. Raxd1 {42s} e5 {+0.11/17 1:00m} 22. Re3
>>{19s (a4)} Bd6 {+0.15/16 1:40m} 23. Kf1 {1:24m} h5
>>{+0.25/15 5s} 24. Bg6+ {1:44m (a4)} Ke7 {+0.30/15 1:12m}
>>25. h4 {11s (f4)} Ke6 {+0.44/16 1:00m} 26. Bc2 {3s} f5
>>{+0.41/16 4:00m} 27. g3 {4s (Lb3+)} Kf6 {+0.82/17 1:22m}
>>28. Bd3 {3s (Lb3)} Nd4 {+1.00/17 1:19m} 29. Be2 {1:13m} a5
>>{+1.12/17 2s} 30. Rb1 {1:05m (Kg2)} b4 {+1.00/17 1:16m}
>>31. Bd1 {2:46m (Td1)} c5 {+1.18/17 1:01m} 32. Rc1 {1:12m}
>>e4 {+1.17/18 0s} 33. Kg2 {1:39m} Rh7 {+1.17/17 15s} 34. Kf1
>>{2:00m (Lb3)} Rc7 {+1.21/16 1:50m} 35. Bxh5 {1:48m} c4
>>{+1.30/18 0s} 36. Bd1 {46s (Td1)} c3 {+1.78/16 1:02m}
>>37. Ba4 {1:09m} Bf8 {+1.89/17 0s} 38. g4 {4:07m} Rh7
>>{+2.08/18 0s} 39. g5+ {55s (Td1)} Ke5 {+2.19/16 45s}
>>40. Rh3 {3s} Nf3 {+2.27/16 1:41m} 41. Kg2 {3:38m (Ke2)}
>>Rxh4 {+2.33/17 1:00m} 42. Rxf3 {3s} exf3+ {+2.50/17 36s}
>>43. Kxf3 {34s} Rf4+ {+2.46/18 32s} 44. Ke2 {1:03m} Rg4
>>{+2.37/18 26s} 45. Rf1 {1:30m (Te1)} f4 {+2.52/17 45s}
>>46. Kf3 {4s (Lb3)} Rxg5 {+2.41/17 42s} 47. Re1+ {9s} Kf6
>>{+2.39/17 1:15m} 48. Kxf4 {3s} Rf5+ {+2.37/17 1:20m}
>>49. Kg4 {2s (Kg3)} Rxf2 {+3.88/17 43s} 50. Bb3 {1:01m} a4
>>{+4.37/18 0s} 51. Re6+ {42s} Kg7 {+4.32/20 0s} 52. Bxa4
>>{22s} Rxa2 {+4.36/18 21s} 53. Bb3 {3s} Ra3 {+4.50/18 23s}
>>54. Bd1 {54s} b3 {+4.78/19 0s} 55. Rc6 {31s} Bb4 {+4.78/17
>>0s} 56. Rc4 {44s} Ba5 {+5.01/18 0s} 57. Rc5 {38s} b2
>>{+5.03/18 0s} 58. Bc2 {1:19m} Ra1 {+5.04/18 0s} 59. Rg5+
>>{41s (Kf4)} Kf6 {+5.36/14 25s} 60. Rf5+ {3s (Tc5)} Ke7
>>{+5.58/15 40s} 61. Re5+ {24s (Tf2)} Kd6 {+8.85/17 50s}
>>62. Re2 {30s} b1=Q {+9.11/18 8s} 63. Bxb1 {24s} Rxb1
>>{+9.17/19 0s} 0-1
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