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Subject: Re: here my guess...

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 19:02:18 08/11/05

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On August 11, 2005 at 21:09:18, Madhavan wrote:

>On August 11, 2005 at 20:57:09, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On August 11, 2005 at 14:37:56, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On August 11, 2005 at 14:00:24, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 13:57:36, Madhavan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 13:53:37, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 12:55:10, Thorsten Czub wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1.  Fruit
>>>>>>>2.  Shredder
>>>>>>>3.  Junior
>>>>>>>4.  Crafty
>>>>>>>5.  Zappa
>>>>>>>6.  Diep
>>>>>>>7.  Sjeng
>>>>>>>8.  Jonny
>>>>>>>9.  IsiChess
>>>>>>>10. My_fute
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That will be a miracle.  A single opteron CPU (single core) is 2x as fast as a
>>>>>>3.0ghz pentium.  I, at least, will be running on 8 of 'em.  That is a tough
>>>>>>disadvantage to overcome...
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't forget Fruit beta has got another 100 elo improvement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Doesn't matter at all.  a speed advantage of 16x is huge.  Not insurmountable,
>>>>but _huge_ and very difficult to overcome.
>>>
>>>I guess that it does not gives more than 150-200 elo improvement because of
>>>diminishing return that means that being twice faster give only 40-50 elo
>>>improvement at long time control and not 70 elo.
>>>
>>>It seems that public fruit is about 150-200 elo better than public Crafty.
>>>I expect both WCCC fruit and WCCC Crafty to be better than the public version so
>>>it seems to me that fruit and Crafty have equal chances.
>>>
>>>Maybe Crafty has better chances because you could learn from Fruit's evaluation
>>>so you improved Crafty more than Fabien improved Fruit but only you can tell if
>>>looking at the source of fruit helped you to improve Crafty.
>>
>>That I can answer easily.  I've not looked at the source of fruit.  So there's
>>no way it could have helped.  In fact, I haven't even seen a game fruit vs
>>crafty so I have no idea how the thing plays.
>>
>>My comment was solely about speed.  a factor of 16 (over 3.0ghz) is 4 doublings,
>>each doubling is certainly worth something.  Whether it will make Crafty
>>stronger than fruit, I won't speculate about since I have no idea how they
>>compare on equal hardware with reasonable opening book moves.  But given two
>>programs that are within a hundred rating points of each other, I'd be
>>hard-pressed to not pick the one that is suddenly 12-16X faster...
>
>Does Hardware have more impact on longer games?How much time does your Program
>on your hardware take to make decision
>
>1r1q1rk1/p1p2ppp/2pbpn2/3p4/1P1P4/P1N1P3/2PB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - b3 0 12
>
>for the above FEN?
>
>Or would you say Crafty would get into 15 or 17 plies too rapidly[in less than
>10 seconds] on complicated position with the hardware you are going to use?
>
>Fruit can get 13 plies in that position even on that FEN
>I'm using P4 2.6GHZ here.It doesn't make a big difference as Fruit's eval is
>much different to Crafty's
>


I'll run it and post the results in a little while.  Crafty is playing on ICC
right now...  after this game is over, I'll see what this position produces and
post the output...



>>That was my only point.  I don't know that I'll win a single game.  But I do
>>know that it is going to be hell to beat the thing.  I've seen 15 ply searches
>>in 5 3 games on ICC in the middlegame.  I saw 16-17 ply middlegame searches
>>against Junior in the next-to-last CCT which Crafty won on a quad cpu box.  This
>>one is 2x faster...
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Also I don't believe the +100 elo stuff anyway, otherwise all the programs would
>>>>be rated 3600 and up by now...
>>>
>>>I also do not believe the +100 elo stuff for fruit in this version but the stuff
>>>is only about fruit so I do not see how you get your conclusion about other
>>>programs.
>>
>>Simple.  Every year, every new version, "the new version is 60-80-100 elo
>>stronger than last year's version."  Seen that over and over and over.  :)
>
>Why do not you do that? :)
>isn't doing that "simple" for you?or you never touch the code,just hook the
>program to the server everyday?I guess,Fabien who uses internet rarely improves
>his program quicker altough he admits being "lazy"
>
>I suspect always hoooking crafty to the server gave you less time to handle the
>code.
>>


Why?  I don't have to do a thing.  I have an automated script that keeps it
logged on.   Takes no activity on my part, other than to look over games after
they are played to see if I see anything that needs attention.  Best way to have
robust code is to exercise it extensively.  A few thousand games in a month will
highlight any bugs...



>>>
>>>The +100 elo stuff was correct for Fruit in the past and it is a fact that fruit
>>>improved faster than other programs
>>>
>>>Fruit2.0 was already above Crafty level on one cpu and Fruit2.1 is slightly more
>>>than 100 elo better than fruit2.0 based on the CEGT rating list.
>>>
>>>Uri



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