Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 09:25:33 08/12/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 12, 2005 at 11:59:50, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 12, 2005 at 11:39:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 12, 2005 at 01:59:30, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 11, 2005 at 20:57:09, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 11, 2005 at 14:37:56, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 14:00:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 13:57:36, Madhavan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 13:53:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 11, 2005 at 12:55:10, Thorsten Czub wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>1. Fruit >>>>>>>>>2. Shredder >>>>>>>>>3. Junior >>>>>>>>>4. Crafty >>>>>>>>>5. Zappa >>>>>>>>>6. Diep >>>>>>>>>7. Sjeng >>>>>>>>>8. Jonny >>>>>>>>>9. IsiChess >>>>>>>>>10. My_fute >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>That will be a miracle. A single opteron CPU (single core) is 2x as fast as a >>>>>>>>3.0ghz pentium. I, at least, will be running on 8 of 'em. That is a tough >>>>>>>>disadvantage to overcome... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Don't forget Fruit beta has got another 100 elo improvement. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Doesn't matter at all. a speed advantage of 16x is huge. Not insurmountable, >>>>>>but _huge_ and very difficult to overcome. >>>>> >>>>>I guess that it does not gives more than 150-200 elo improvement because of >>>>>diminishing return that means that being twice faster give only 40-50 elo >>>>>improvement at long time control and not 70 elo. >>>>> >>>>>It seems that public fruit is about 150-200 elo better than public Crafty. >>>>>I expect both WCCC fruit and WCCC Crafty to be better than the public version so >>>>>it seems to me that fruit and Crafty have equal chances. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe Crafty has better chances because you could learn from Fruit's evaluation >>>>>so you improved Crafty more than Fabien improved Fruit but only you can tell if >>>>>looking at the source of fruit helped you to improve Crafty. >>>> >>>>That I can answer easily. I've not looked at the source of fruit. So there's >>>>no way it could have helped. In fact, I haven't even seen a game fruit vs >>>>crafty so I have no idea how the thing plays. >>> >>>I think that it is better if you look at the code because it probably can help >>>you to find better ideas to improve crafty. >>> >>><snipped> >>>>Simple. Every year, every new version, "the new version is 60-80-100 elo >>>>stronger than last year's version." Seen that over and over and over. :) >>> >>>For fruit it is correct so far and there is more than one version per year. >>>Note that I do not expect fruit of today to be 100 elo better than Fruit2.1 >>>because 2 months is too early for 100 elo improvement but I certainly expect 100 >>>elo improvement in fruit to happen in less than a year because Fabien is better >>>programmer than the programmers of the commercial programs(I also expect part of >>>the commercial to improve faster thanks to learning from fruit). >>> >>>Fruit2.1 is from 17.6.2005 >>>Fruit2.0 is from 24.12.2004 >>>Fruit1.5 is from 17.06.2004 >>>Fruit1.0 is from 17.03.2004 >>> >>>Based on different lists I find more than 100 elo difference between Fruit2.1 >>>and Fruit2.0 and I remember similiar improvement with older versions of Fruit. >>> >>>You can say that it was not hard to improve old versions before Fruit2.0 but >>>Fruit2.0 is already better than the public version of Crafty on one cpu and >>>Fruit still has search bugs that fabien did not fix. >>> >>>Here are 2 rating lists when both fruit2.1 and fruit2.0 have more than 1000 >>>games: >>> >>>http://www.miko42.de/turniere/blitzturniere/blitzrangliste.html >>> >>>Fruit2.1 2712 >>>Fruit2.0 2608 >>> >>>http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/rangliste.html >>> >>>Fruit2.1 2713 >>>Fruit2.0 2607 >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>That's all well and good, but also a different topic. Almost _any_ engine >>progresses by leaps and bounds the first year or two or three, assuming it was a >>"start from scratch" project. But once it incorporates most of the known ideas, >>progress starts to slow down... > >of course I expect fruit to slow down after enough progress but I Know that >public fruit has weaknesses in the search(for example it does not use partial >extensions and also cannot solve fast fine70(the pawn endgame when Kb1 is the >winning move)). > >I also know that fabien plans to fix the weaknesses(at least for fine70) and >this is one of the reasons that I still expect big improvement for fruit in the >near future. > >Uri fine 70 is a strange weakness, as all that is needed is a functional hash table and this gets solved instantly...
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