Author: Uri Blass
Date: 22:24:01 08/15/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 16, 2005 at 00:46:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 15, 2005 at 23:53:14, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On August 15, 2005 at 21:41:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 15, 2005 at 21:21:46, Mark Young wrote: >>> >>>>On August 15, 2005 at 20:54:51, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 19:35:25, Mark Young wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:55:58, Thomas Mayer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:41:40, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:21:31, Theo van der Storm wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>C:\DOSEXE\PGN.EXE -d -x wccc13.pgn >>>>>>>>> # Name 1 2 3 4 P BU SB G >>>>>>>>> 1 Crafty 3b= 4b1 10w1 9b1 3.5 8.0 6.50 4 >>>>>>>>> 2 Zappa 9w1 6b1 5w1 11b= 3.5 6.0 5.75 4 >>>>>>>>> 3 Shredder 1w= 10b1 9w1 6b= 3.0 7.5 4.75 4 >>>>>>>>> 4 Deep Junior 11b1 1w0 7b1 10w1 3.0 7.0 3.50 4 >>>>>>>>> 5 Fruit 7b1 8w1 2b0 12w= 2.5 7.5 3.75 4 >>>>>>>>> 6 Deep Sjeng 8b= 2w0 12b1 3w= 2.0 8.5 2.75 4 >>>>>>>>> 7 Jonny 5w0 11b1 4w0 8w1 2.0 7.5 2.00 4 >>>>>>>>> 8 The Baron 6w= 5b0 11w1 7b0 1.5 7.0 1.50 4 >>>>>>>>> 9 The Crazy Bishop 2b0 12w1 3b0 1w0 1.0 10.5 0.50 4 >>>>>>>>> 10 Diep 12b1 3w0 1b0 4b0 1.0 10.0 0.50 4 >>>>>>>>> 11 Fute_MT 4w0 7w0 8b0 2w= 0.5 10.0 1.75 4 >>>>>>>>> 12 IsiChess MMX 10w0 9b0 6w0 5b= 0.5 6.5 1.25 4 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> # Name 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 P BU SB >>>>>>>>> 1 Crafty X . ½ 1 . . . . 1 1 . . 3.5 8.0 6.50 >>>>>>>>> 2 Zappa . X . . 1 1 . . 1 . ½ . 3.5 6.0 5.75 >>>>>>>>> 3 Shredder ½ . X . . ½ . . 1 1 . . 3.0 7.5 4.75 >>>>>>>>> 4 Deep Junior 0 . . X . . 1 . . 1 1 . 3.0 7.0 3.50 >>>>>>>>> 5 Fruit . 0 . . X . 1 1 . . . ½ 2.5 7.5 3.75 >>>>>>>>> 6 Deep Sjeng . 0 ½ . . X . ½ . . . 1 2.0 8.5 2.75 >>>>>>>>> 7 Jonny . . . 0 0 . X 1 . . 1 . 2.0 7.5 2.00 >>>>>>>>> 8 The Baron . . . . 0 ½ 0 X . . 1 . 1.5 7.0 1.50 >>>>>>>>> 9 The Crazy Bishop 0 0 0 . . . . . X . . 1 1.0 10.5 0.50 >>>>>>>>> 10 Diep 0 . 0 0 . . . . . X . 1 1.0 10.0 0.50 >>>>>>>>> 11 Fute_MT . ½ . 0 . . 0 0 . . X . 0.5 10.0 1.75 >>>>>>>>> 12 IsiChess MMX . . . . ½ 0 . . 0 0 . X 0.5 6.5 1.25 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is there a hardware listing somewhere yet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I am guessing that Fruit is the only one in the top six that is running on a >>>>>>>>single CPU. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Against Crafty (for instance) there is about 6-7x speed difference (as a rough >>>>>>>>estimate). I am curious about the other hardware. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hi Dann, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>all I know currently is, that Diep & Crafty play on 8-way boxes, Shredder, >>>>>>>Junior & Zappa on 4-way, Deep Sjeng on Dual an the rest on single... For Jonny >>>>>>>it should be Athlon 64 with 2.6 GHz internally, Fruit is 2.4 GHz... >>>>>>>I think Gerd has his own Athlon 64 with him which is afaik 2.2 GHz -> The rest >>>>>>>is probably P4 3.0 GHz >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Greets, Thomas >>>>>> >>>>>>Crafty has really shown me some very good chess in this tournament. Crafty has >>>>>>shown some holes in its play before. I don't see them so far in this tournament. >>>>>>This has to be more then just 8 cpu's and 16 million nodes a sec helping >>>>>>Crafty's play. For this to happen Crafty must has also stepped up a notch on the >>>>>>programming side. Speed is great, but speed can't always fix holes in a programs >>>>>>play. As shown by Diep for example who also plays on a 8 way. Bob looks like a >>>>>>big threat for any program in this touranment, and it is no fluke that Crafty is >>>>>>in first place. Bob has to be considered a favorite to win this tournament. I >>>>>>would not have said that 2 days ago. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I still wouldn't say it myself. :) >>>> >>>>You may not want to say it, but you see what I see...I bet. :) It is not easy to >>>>bring everything together when playing in WCCC. You may have done it this year. >>>>All the best Bob. Good Luck. >>> >>> >>>There are a couple of issues at least. Yes, the thing is very fast, which tends >>>to mean that everyone else is searching a perfect sub-tree of what crafty is >>>searching. That is a serious problem for them. If you ever play against >>>someone with much faster hardware, you'll see this effect. You play the best >>>move you can find, yet your eval continually drops. This simply means you are >>>getting out-searched. TCB played well today, it just got out-searched pretty >>>badly. The other issue is the "luck factor". A good program can have bad luck >>>and lose against anybody in Iceland. A bad program can have a bit of luck in a >>>single game, and be capable of beating anyone playing there. I just have to >>>hope that I'm not the recipient of that bad luck. >>> >>>Also, there are some very strong opponents left. Anthony's program (zappa) is >>>certainly highly dangerous. Don't know much about Fruit, but from all the >>>comments here, it is highly capable of winning games. It is going to have its >>>hands full against Crafty's search speed, but I can clearly remember both Cray >>>Blitz and Deep Thought losing a game here and there against _far_ slower >>>programs that also had less chess knowledge. >>> >>>In the shredder game, Crafty played well. It pushed hard and pushed into a >>>position where it had an eval of almost -2.0, which means it was simply >>>out-searching shredder for the most part (ignoring shredder's selective search >>>stuff of course). >> >>I am not sure if better position means outsearching the opponent and it can be >>simply result of better evaluation. >> >>better hardware does not mean automatically outsearching the opponent and it may >>be interesting to see if Crafty outsearches fruit in middle game positions after >>the tournament. > >I can test any positions you want. I don't recall a search less than 15 plies >deep so far during the WCCC, and most are 16 and up... I think that most of fruit searchs are 16 and up(of course depths are not equivalent and I think that fruit does both more pruning and both extensions than Crafty) > > >> >> >> It then was a little optimistic in its evaluation with the >>>opponent's two connected passers, something I had seen a couple of times in test >>>games against shredder on ICC. Was afraid to try to fix that so close to the >>>tournament, because changes to the eval can have effects far beyond just the >>>things being looked at. >>> >>>The deep junior game saw DJ self-destruct with the BN for RP sacrifice. No idea >>>what caused that, other than probably king-safety turned up too high to reward >>>aggressive play. >> >>Maybe good preperation of peter berger to go to positions that Junior does not >>know how to play? > >Impossible. How to get access to their book to know where they will go? How to >get access to their program to know how it will react and what it handles >poorly? Impossible to get access to their program but guessing that they may have the same weakness as Junior9 is not a bad guess. About their book I agree that it is impossible but it is still possible to find some lines that they do not play well and if you are lucky these lines are in their book(there is a significant probability that line in their public book will be also in the tournament book). first 6 moves of Junior are in the public book of Junior and later Junior out of the public book. > >We didn't have time for that kind of experimentation, even if we had had access >to the current DJ program and hardware... I agree that it is not easy to do that kind of preperation but in theory it is possible. > > >> >>Note that I am not sure that the sacrifice was so bad because fruit also likes >>it but does not continue like Junior but go to trade pieces. > >It is bad. Period. Just based on general principles... This is also what I thought but I am not sure about it I expect in position that is good for black that the evaluation will improve when the program goes deeper I do not see it. In position that is forced some plies after the sacrifice Crafty suggest 17...Be6 and the evaluation for black does not improve when it searches deeper. 116: Junior - Crafty 19.20, WCCC 13th Reykjavik 2005 [D]5/npp2kpp/1b1p4/pP2p2n/P1N1P3/2PP4/5PPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 1 Analysis by Crafty 19.19: 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 µ (-0.97) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 µ (-0.97) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Bg5 ³ (-0.69) Depth: 3/6 00:00:00 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nc8 µ (-0.79) Depth: 4/9 00:00:00 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.Bg5 ³ (-0.60) Depth: 5/11 00:00:00 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 ³ (-0.63) Depth: 5/11 00:00:00 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 21.Kf2 ³ (-0.55) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 26kN 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.f4 Kf6 21.fxe5+ Kxe5 ³ (-0.65) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 37kN 17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.Be3 Nc8 21.c4 ³ (-0.55) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 69kN 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Rfe1 Bd7 20.e5 Nc8 21.Nxb6 Nxb6 22.exd6 cxd6 ³ (-0.66) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 116kN 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 21.d4 Bc4 22.Rfe1 ³ (-0.58) Depth: 8/18 00:00:00 246kN 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.Rfe1 Be6 21.e5 dxe5 22.Rxe5 Rd8 ³ (-0.61) Depth: 9/22 00:00:00 580kN 17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Rfe1 Be6 20.Nxb6 cxb6 ³ (-0.41) Depth: 10/24 00:00:01 1127kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Rf8 23.Rxf8+ Kxf8 24.Rf1+ Ke7 25.d5 ³ (-0.53) Depth: 10/24 00:00:01 1414kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.c4 Rf8 23.Raf1 Rxf4 24.Rxf4 ³ (-0.60) Depth: 11/24 00:00:02 2334kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Rf8 23.Rxf8+ Kxf8 24.Rf1+ Ke7 25.d5 Bg4 26.h4 ³ (-0.59) Depth: 12/25 00:00:03 3870kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.c4 Rf8 23.Raf1 Rxf4 24.Rxf4 Nc8 25.Kf2 ³ (-0.56) Depth: 13/26 00:00:05 7235kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Bb3 23.e5 dxe5 24.dxe5 Rc8 25.Rc1 Be6 ³ (-0.52) Depth: 14/27 00:00:11 15110kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Kg6 20.Bxb6 Nf4 21.Bxa7 Rxa7 22.Rfd1 Ra8 23.Rd2 Rc8 24.Rc1 Bg4 25.f3 Be6 ³ (-0.53) Depth: 15/30 00:00:37 53073kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 h6 24.d5 Nh4 25.Re1 g5 ³ (-0.50) Depth: 16/33 00:01:10 101240kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 Ke6 24.d5+ Kf6 25.Re1 Bb3 26.Ra1 Bc4 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 17/35 00:02:58 257904kN 17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 Rb8 24.d5 h6 25.Re1 Bb3 26.Ra1 Bc4 ³ (-0.47) Depth: 18/37 00:07:12 615310kN (, 16.08.2005) Uri
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