Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 04:24:35 08/16/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 16, 2005 at 01:24:01, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 16, 2005 at 00:46:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 15, 2005 at 23:53:14, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On August 15, 2005 at 21:41:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 15, 2005 at 21:21:46, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 20:54:51, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 19:35:25, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:55:58, Thomas Mayer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:41:40, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On August 15, 2005 at 16:21:31, Theo van der Storm wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>C:\DOSEXE\PGN.EXE -d -x wccc13.pgn >>>>>>>>>> # Name 1 2 3 4 P BU SB G >>>>>>>>>> 1 Crafty 3b= 4b1 10w1 9b1 3.5 8.0 6.50 4 >>>>>>>>>> 2 Zappa 9w1 6b1 5w1 11b= 3.5 6.0 5.75 4 >>>>>>>>>> 3 Shredder 1w= 10b1 9w1 6b= 3.0 7.5 4.75 4 >>>>>>>>>> 4 Deep Junior 11b1 1w0 7b1 10w1 3.0 7.0 3.50 4 >>>>>>>>>> 5 Fruit 7b1 8w1 2b0 12w= 2.5 7.5 3.75 4 >>>>>>>>>> 6 Deep Sjeng 8b= 2w0 12b1 3w= 2.0 8.5 2.75 4 >>>>>>>>>> 7 Jonny 5w0 11b1 4w0 8w1 2.0 7.5 2.00 4 >>>>>>>>>> 8 The Baron 6w= 5b0 11w1 7b0 1.5 7.0 1.50 4 >>>>>>>>>> 9 The Crazy Bishop 2b0 12w1 3b0 1w0 1.0 10.5 0.50 4 >>>>>>>>>> 10 Diep 12b1 3w0 1b0 4b0 1.0 10.0 0.50 4 >>>>>>>>>> 11 Fute_MT 4w0 7w0 8b0 2w= 0.5 10.0 1.75 4 >>>>>>>>>> 12 IsiChess MMX 10w0 9b0 6w0 5b= 0.5 6.5 1.25 4 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> # Name 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 P BU SB >>>>>>>>>> 1 Crafty X . ½ 1 . . . . 1 1 . . 3.5 8.0 6.50 >>>>>>>>>> 2 Zappa . X . . 1 1 . . 1 . ½ . 3.5 6.0 5.75 >>>>>>>>>> 3 Shredder ½ . X . . ½ . . 1 1 . . 3.0 7.5 4.75 >>>>>>>>>> 4 Deep Junior 0 . . X . . 1 . . 1 1 . 3.0 7.0 3.50 >>>>>>>>>> 5 Fruit . 0 . . X . 1 1 . . . ½ 2.5 7.5 3.75 >>>>>>>>>> 6 Deep Sjeng . 0 ½ . . X . ½ . . . 1 2.0 8.5 2.75 >>>>>>>>>> 7 Jonny . . . 0 0 . X 1 . . 1 . 2.0 7.5 2.00 >>>>>>>>>> 8 The Baron . . . . 0 ½ 0 X . . 1 . 1.5 7.0 1.50 >>>>>>>>>> 9 The Crazy Bishop 0 0 0 . . . . . X . . 1 1.0 10.5 0.50 >>>>>>>>>> 10 Diep 0 . 0 0 . . . . . X . 1 1.0 10.0 0.50 >>>>>>>>>> 11 Fute_MT . ½ . 0 . . 0 0 . . X . 0.5 10.0 1.75 >>>>>>>>>> 12 IsiChess MMX . . . . ½ 0 . . 0 0 . X 0.5 6.5 1.25 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Is there a hardware listing somewhere yet? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I am guessing that Fruit is the only one in the top six that is running on a >>>>>>>>>single CPU. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Against Crafty (for instance) there is about 6-7x speed difference (as a rough >>>>>>>>>estimate). I am curious about the other hardware. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hi Dann, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>all I know currently is, that Diep & Crafty play on 8-way boxes, Shredder, >>>>>>>>Junior & Zappa on 4-way, Deep Sjeng on Dual an the rest on single... For Jonny >>>>>>>>it should be Athlon 64 with 2.6 GHz internally, Fruit is 2.4 GHz... >>>>>>>>I think Gerd has his own Athlon 64 with him which is afaik 2.2 GHz -> The rest >>>>>>>>is probably P4 3.0 GHz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Greets, Thomas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Crafty has really shown me some very good chess in this tournament. Crafty has >>>>>>>shown some holes in its play before. I don't see them so far in this tournament. >>>>>>>This has to be more then just 8 cpu's and 16 million nodes a sec helping >>>>>>>Crafty's play. For this to happen Crafty must has also stepped up a notch on the >>>>>>>programming side. Speed is great, but speed can't always fix holes in a programs >>>>>>>play. As shown by Diep for example who also plays on a 8 way. Bob looks like a >>>>>>>big threat for any program in this touranment, and it is no fluke that Crafty is >>>>>>>in first place. Bob has to be considered a favorite to win this tournament. I >>>>>>>would not have said that 2 days ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I still wouldn't say it myself. :) >>>>> >>>>>You may not want to say it, but you see what I see...I bet. :) It is not easy to >>>>>bring everything together when playing in WCCC. You may have done it this year. >>>>>All the best Bob. Good Luck. >>>> >>>> >>>>There are a couple of issues at least. Yes, the thing is very fast, which tends >>>>to mean that everyone else is searching a perfect sub-tree of what crafty is >>>>searching. That is a serious problem for them. If you ever play against >>>>someone with much faster hardware, you'll see this effect. You play the best >>>>move you can find, yet your eval continually drops. This simply means you are >>>>getting out-searched. TCB played well today, it just got out-searched pretty >>>>badly. The other issue is the "luck factor". A good program can have bad luck >>>>and lose against anybody in Iceland. A bad program can have a bit of luck in a >>>>single game, and be capable of beating anyone playing there. I just have to >>>>hope that I'm not the recipient of that bad luck. >>>> >>>>Also, there are some very strong opponents left. Anthony's program (zappa) is >>>>certainly highly dangerous. Don't know much about Fruit, but from all the >>>>comments here, it is highly capable of winning games. It is going to have its >>>>hands full against Crafty's search speed, but I can clearly remember both Cray >>>>Blitz and Deep Thought losing a game here and there against _far_ slower >>>>programs that also had less chess knowledge. >>>> >>>>In the shredder game, Crafty played well. It pushed hard and pushed into a >>>>position where it had an eval of almost -2.0, which means it was simply >>>>out-searching shredder for the most part (ignoring shredder's selective search >>>>stuff of course). >>> >>>I am not sure if better position means outsearching the opponent and it can be >>>simply result of better evaluation. >>> >>>better hardware does not mean automatically outsearching the opponent and it may >>>be interesting to see if Crafty outsearches fruit in middle game positions after >>>the tournament. >> >>I can test any positions you want. I don't recall a search less than 15 plies >>deep so far during the WCCC, and most are 16 and up... > >I think that most of fruit searchs are 16 and up(of course depths are not >equivalent and I think that fruit does both more pruning and both extensions >than Crafty) >> >> >>> >>> >>> It then was a little optimistic in its evaluation with the >>>>opponent's two connected passers, something I had seen a couple of times in test >>>>games against shredder on ICC. Was afraid to try to fix that so close to the >>>>tournament, because changes to the eval can have effects far beyond just the >>>>things being looked at. >>>> >>>>The deep junior game saw DJ self-destruct with the BN for RP sacrifice. No idea >>>>what caused that, other than probably king-safety turned up too high to reward >>>>aggressive play. >>> >>>Maybe good preperation of peter berger to go to positions that Junior does not >>>know how to play? >> >>Impossible. How to get access to their book to know where they will go? How to >>get access to their program to know how it will react and what it handles >>poorly? > >Impossible to get access to their program but guessing that they may have the >same weakness as Junior9 is not a bad guess. > >About their book I agree that it is impossible but it is still possible to find >some lines that they do not play well and if you are lucky these lines are in >their book(there is a significant probability that line in their public book >will be also in the tournament book). > >first 6 moves of Junior are in the public book of Junior and later Junior out of >the public book. > >> >>We didn't have time for that kind of experimentation, even if we had had access >>to the current DJ program and hardware... > >I agree that it is not easy to do that kind of preperation but in theory it is >possible. > >> >> >>> >>>Note that I am not sure that the sacrifice was so bad because fruit also likes >>>it but does not continue like Junior but go to trade pieces. >> >>It is bad. Period. Just based on general principles... > >This is also what I thought but I am not sure about it > >I expect in position that is good for black that the evaluation will improve >when the program goes deeper > >I do not see it. >In position that is forced some plies after the sacrifice >Crafty suggest 17...Be6 and the evaluation for black does not improve when it >searches deeper. > Here is what I see in the log file: after Qxf7, score is -.70, after white plays Nf3 the next move, score is -1.0, after Be3, -1.23, after white plays Nh4, -1.24, after white plays Nf6, -1.45. Score is dropping _every_ move. Which suggests that a big problem is present, and started with the Nxf7 sac... > > >116: Junior - Crafty 19.20, WCCC 13th Reykjavik 2005 >[D]5/npp2kpp/1b1p4/pP2p2n/P1N1P3/2PP4/5PPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Crafty 19.19: > >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 > µ (-0.97) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 > µ (-0.97) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Bg5 > ³ (-0.69) Depth: 3/6 00:00:00 >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nc8 > µ (-0.79) Depth: 4/9 00:00:00 >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.Bg5 > ³ (-0.60) Depth: 5/11 00:00:00 >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 > ³ (-0.63) Depth: 5/11 00:00:00 >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 21.Kf2 > ³ (-0.55) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 26kN >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.f4 Kf6 21.fxe5+ Kxe5 > ³ (-0.65) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 37kN >17...Bg4 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f3 Be6 20.Be3 Nc8 21.c4 > ³ (-0.55) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 69kN >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Rfe1 Bd7 20.e5 Nc8 21.Nxb6 Nxb6 22.exd6 cxd6 > ³ (-0.66) Depth: 7/16 00:00:00 116kN >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.f3 Be6 21.d4 Bc4 22.Rfe1 > ³ (-0.58) Depth: 8/18 00:00:00 246kN >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Nxb6 cxb6 20.Rfe1 Be6 21.e5 dxe5 22.Rxe5 Rd8 > ³ (-0.61) Depth: 9/22 00:00:00 580kN >17...Nf4 18.Bxf4 exf4 19.Rfe1 Be6 20.Nxb6 cxb6 > ³ (-0.41) Depth: 10/24 00:00:01 1127kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Rf8 23.Rxf8+ >Kxf8 24.Rf1+ Ke7 25.d5 > ³ (-0.53) Depth: 10/24 00:00:01 1414kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.c4 Rf8 23.Raf1 >Rxf4 24.Rxf4 > ³ (-0.60) Depth: 11/24 00:00:02 2334kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Rf8 23.Rxf8+ >Kxf8 24.Rf1+ Ke7 25.d5 Bg4 26.h4 > ³ (-0.59) Depth: 12/25 00:00:03 3870kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.c4 Rf8 23.Raf1 >Rxf4 24.Rxf4 Nc8 25.Kf2 > ³ (-0.56) Depth: 13/26 00:00:05 7235kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.f4 exf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21.Rxf4+ Kg8 22.d4 Bb3 23.e5 dxe5 >24.dxe5 Rc8 25.Rc1 Be6 > ³ (-0.52) Depth: 14/27 00:00:11 15110kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Kg6 20.Bxb6 Nf4 21.Bxa7 Rxa7 22.Rfd1 Ra8 23.Rd2 Rc8 >24.Rc1 Bg4 25.f3 Be6 > ³ (-0.53) Depth: 15/30 00:00:37 53073kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 h6 24.d5 >Nh4 25.Re1 g5 > ³ (-0.50) Depth: 16/33 00:01:10 101240kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 Ke6 >24.d5+ Kf6 25.Re1 Bb3 26.Ra1 Bc4 > ³ (-0.47) Depth: 17/35 00:02:58 257904kN >17...Be6 18.Nxb6 cxb6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rfd1 Nc8 21.Rd2 Ng6 22.d4 Bc4 23.f3 Rb8 >24.d5 h6 25.Re1 Bb3 26.Ra1 Bc4 > ³ (-0.47) Depth: 18/37 00:07:12 615310kN > >(, 16.08.2005) > >Uri
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