Computer Chess Club Archives




Subject: Re: Zappa-Isichess

Author: Arturo Ochoa

Date: 03:03:03 08/20/05

Go up one level in this thread

On August 19, 2005 at 21:29:27, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 19, 2005 at 20:49:56, Arturo Ochoa wrote:
>>On August 19, 2005 at 20:36:45, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>On August 19, 2005 at 19:50:08, Richard Pijl wrote:
>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:43:01, Thomas Lagershausen wrote:
>>>>>On August 19, 2005 at 15:26:55, A. Cozzie wrote:
>>>>>>Here I screwed my book creator, because the horrible, horrible Fritz interface
>>>>>>resets the book options every time you touch the mouse, and played with
>>>>>>incorrect options.  But somehow Zappa managed to slip into the win anyway;
>>>>>>perhaps it was a bit lucky.
>>>>>Never play with the cb-gui. It had cost a lot of programs points in the history
>>>>>of wccc.
>>>>>I hope Zappa 2.0 is still uci and can be used in Arena.
>>>>Zappa's book requires the CB-GUI
>>>I think that it is unfair to use books that require the CB-GUI
>>>If I understand correctly it means that the GUI choose the book moves and not
>>>the engine so the author is using something external program to help him to
>>>select moves.
>>>I think that the engine needs to choose all the moves(otherwise the playing
>>>thing is not original work of the author and the authors of the chessbase gui
>>>should be mentioned as part of the team).
>>Uri Blass, the king of the absurd arguments.
>>1) For CCT7 and the Elhvest Match, I used the native format for Zappa.
>>2) For WCCC2005, there are several engines that has been using the ChessBase
>>GUI. However, it doesn't mean that the Book was made by ChessBase. The Book
>>Responsible for Zappa in the WCCC2005 has been Erdogan whose book is in the
>>ChessBase format. It is his original work performed by several years.
>>The engine is a complete original work of Anthony Cozzie.
>>If you are going to begin your post-WCCC2005 nonsense before the Tournament is
>>over, I suggest you find other hobby according to your absurd world, instead of
>>writing craps every day of the year.
>This argument comes up every year, and Uri has a valid point.

To begin such argument where the Tournament is quite over is just absurd.
Erdogan's Book is in CB Format and he had only a few weeks to test Zappa.

>Although the ICGA doesn't seem to quite grasp the problem that many of us have
>pointed out.  The opening book is a _significant_ part of a chess engine.  Which
>means the code to select moves from that book based on some sort of algorithm is
>going to possibly play a significant number of moves, if not the majority of the
>moves in the game.  Allowing someone else to write this code and then share it
>among multiple engines is simply wrong.  Writing custom books is fine, but the
>chess engine author should be responsible for any code that makes chess playing

While the ICGA doesnt care about format rule to forbid this, the discussion is
just a waste of time. Nobody can say that I have ever used a CB Book for a
specific engine. Erdogan has developed the book in several years and I had to
retire from the Zappa's behalf for personal reasons.

>For example, we could have the following issues:
>1.  If the GUI chooses book moves, and handles book learning, is it reasonable
>that the _same_ code be used in multiple engines?  I tend to say "no".

Invalid: Not time for learning, since Erdogan only had 3 weeks to tune his Book
for Zappa. He has already an incredible work.

>2.  If the GUI does the time allocation, tells the engine how long to search,
>when to search longer, when to search faster, handles multiple time controls,
>and so forth, isn't that a major function that a chess engine has to manage?  If
>so, is it fair that multiple programs share this code since they share a common
>GUI?  Again, I would say "no".
>3.  If the GUI handles endgame tables, should the GUI be able to either
>instantly play a table move, or say "let's search, this is a draw, and we want
>to give the opponent a chance to make an error."  I coded "swindle mode" into my
>program, along with code to handle missing tables (you have kpk but not kqk so
>your program might never promote without a fix.)  Is it reasonable for a single
>author to write code to do all of that, and then have multiple programs share it
>in a tournament?  Again, "no".

Ir doesn't apply for Zappa because it access the EGTBs via Zappa and not by CB.

>4.  Should a book author be able to write a book for multiple engines?  Can he
>physically separate the two projects so there is _nothing_ in common?  Of course
>he can't, and this is simply a bad idea.  This has come up multiple times, and
>yet it never gets addressed properly, because it might "offend" a commercial
>company that sells programs that could share the book.

It doesnt apply either for this case, since Zappa is using the help of Erdogan
and I was contacted by Diepeveen.

>I have no problem with a GUI doing "GUI tasks".  Recognizing moves, displaying
>the board, displaying the clock, etc.  But the GUI has no place going farther
>and actually influencing which moves are played in a game.  Because that crosses
>over into what the engine is supposed to be doing.  GUI means "Graphical User
>Interface".  Not "Graphical User Interface and front-end to make basic chess
>move decisions before letting the engine do anything."

Zappa required a last hour booker and Erdogan was a great solution. On fact,
Zappa is winning the Tournament for now.

>In the Zappa case, I don't have any problem with it using a "book" written by
>anybody (so long as it is a one-user book and not shared.)  But the current GUI
>is taking over too much of the game's complexity...  Winboard/Xboard is an
>example of a reasonable "GUI".  Just does GUI tasks.  No book, no timing
>decisions, no endgame table probes, no nothing but relaying information between
>the user and the engine, exactly what a "user interface" should be doing...

I don't really care if you have problems or not. Winboard is not a reasonable
GUI as far as it can't manage a simple book structure. Yes, I admire how Peter
Beger can stand the work with simple txt files, but he has had more thanb 3
weeks to prepare the Crafty's Book.

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