Author: Martin Müller
Date: 15:57:31 08/20/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 20, 2005 at 18:17:10, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >On August 20, 2005 at 17:26:25, Martin Müller wrote: > >>On August 20, 2005 at 16:43:40, Rolf Tueschen wrote: >> >>>CRAFTY is the winner because it is the only program that is open to challenges >>>online over the years and other programmers could even study its source code. If >>>CRAFTY THEN wins so many games in the tournament it's the legal winner, because >>>it's strong out of itself. Other programs are only strong through their tuning >>>on CRAFTY. >>> >>>Programs like JUNIOR, SJENG, DIEP etc. are a deep deception for CC as such. >>>These programs are, although their programmers are most experienced in CC AND >>>could tune on CRAFTY, in itself weak and a deception. >>> >>>The normally strongest program SHREDDER paid its tribute to its programmer's >>>hyperactivity by participating in Mainz so shortly before the Wch. >>> >>>Kudos to Bob Hyatt and his lifelong performance. >> >> >>Hi Rolf, >> >>Me too, I find it very good to create programs with open source code. However >>this is not finally a measure for performance neither does this entitle to be >>the moral winner. In championship counts success only. > >Thanks for your friendly reply. However I must strongly contradict your >opinions. Maybe our dissent is partly due to language problems but you >misunderstood what I've written. Beyond the fact that the presenting of an open >source program for the whole community is representing Bob's value for CC, my >argument was a different one. Hope this will be more likely understood now: if a >program like CRAFTY is winning so many point in a Wch ALTHOUGH its code is open >for many years this PROVES that those who could learn from CRAFTY are incapable >of writing own programs which are then stronger than CRAFTY. Only in that >relationsship I praised Bob's class. His program has so much strength, that it >wins many games against opponents who could have learned from it and hence >should be stronger than CRAFTY. This should be the logical consequence. > >New progs like ZAPPA or FRUIT are NOT available for tunings on the net! At least >NOT for so many years. > >I'm NOT saying that therefore CRAFTY is the "moral winner" of the actual >tournament, but I wanted to lead your attention to the enormous handicap CRAFTY >had to play with. Being checked by so many other programmers! > >With your general statement Bob always agreed with. Success is what the points >say in the end and that's it. Just for that single event. Not overall and for >always. > > >> >>Your statement regarding other programs/programmers fails to convince me. For >>example Shredder was surely not updated and highly probable would not have been >>updated with or without Stefan Meyer-Kahlen's participation in Mainz. > > >How wrong. SMK was always optimally prepared in the past. He always won with a >"new" version. With Mainz I mean his commercial attempt of the fen construction >too. He was a bit "misleaden" in his attention to say the least. > > > >> >>What you mean with "deception" regarding the other programs such as Junior >>a.s.o. is absolutely unclear. > >Remembering that JUNIOR once played Kasparov its performance is a deception. But >if you look at DIEP, it's an even deeper deception that's right. It's beyond my >mind why Vincent is not improving over the years. Compared to his brave style >when he tries to prove Bob, the academic, wrong in so many debates. If he knew >it all better he surely would be many points ahead in such a tournament - but he >isn't. Hear a bell ring? > > > >> >>If it was the goal to point out the good things on Bob and his product, then >>there is no need to do this to the debit of third parties. > >This is true but this is also not what I've been trying to show. I sopke of >"lifelong performance", not just performance. And if you please allow me to >inform you, Bob has won already three World Championships in the past. He wasn't >always alone the open source man, but he's a Champion. And if his CRAFTY is now >doing so fine in such a tournament we should just recognize the wisdom which >stands behind such a project. > >I'm NOT putting the others DOWN by just showing them unsuccessful compared to >their chances for so many years. If that doesn't tell the whole truth perhaps >the fact does it that CRAFTY is online quasi state of the art from where others >and new programmers take their inspirations. If that doesn't prove who's the >real inspirator of the whole CC, then I don't know who should be called >inspirator. Isn't it sad for us all that nobody could take the inspirations and >create a new and better program? > >And all that before the background that Bob is answering EVERY question here on >the net. So, his successes are not ones of a magician but of a solid scientist >and teacher. I for one see too little respect for such a performance! > >Also friendly regards, >Rolf > > > >> >>Kind regards Hi Rolf, Appreciating Bob Hyatt's presence on ICC since nearly 10 years I agree with all the agruments which favour him and his work. Regarding Shredder I think after the 64bit issue he implemented, the FRC approach he did, it would take a really long period of time until a really substantial update will be done. Anyway, leading ranking lists since a long time, it is hard to present something really better. At least as far as I can appreciate that. And I am no programmer. I still feel that deception is not the appropriate expression for the programs failing to comply with your expectations. I take it, that you are dissappointet, that they do no better. Again, I fully agree on the great job Bob is and was doing. Not to forget all the tablebases he offers for download at his website. Kind regards Martin >>Martin
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