Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:06:34 02/24/99
Go up one level in this thread
On February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 24, 1999 at 16:04:41, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz did >>not 'cook' anything to get the answers right. > >I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz >did cook. > >Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has >ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9 >to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms >get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has >been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit >that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning. > I disagree with the above. The 'shortcoming' is in Rebel, _not_ in Fritz. IE if you can't learn when alternating colors, what good is learning, since _most_ real tournaments do alternate? I've said it before.. what you can fix on _your_ end you should. In this case, it is a strange design decision indeed that says you have to play N games same color to learn anything... >Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5 >auto232 player can collect the results. > >Let me give an example what happened. > >I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at >auto232 player against Rebel9. > >He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program >didn't win a single game versus rebel9. > >So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning >from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were >not the same as he turned off learning. > >This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9? >It was quickly solved when i got back the games. > >Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it >lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves >or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the >auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had >mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or >3 fold repetition. > >Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in >which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game: > >rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game, >and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or >had mated diep, it showed that rebel won. > >People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have >the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and >pass that on. > >Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW >THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion. > >Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled >(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent. > >Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened. >So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game. > >For example: >After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1. >Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect >a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played, >and some whizzkids here might slowly see how >silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form >of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books. > >Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet. >Without learning you can go home. > >Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird. > >He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz >plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is >laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the >nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32 > >Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this. > >If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered >to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20 >minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating >programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking >advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after >it stores a game, the only way to beat them? > >We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5 >can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker, >the best one money would be able to buy. > >You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs! > >Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel! >But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second, >where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second >or something. > >Vincent Diepeveen
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