Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 23:49:49 02/24/99
Go up one level in this thread
>Posted by Vincent Diepeveen on February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10: >>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz >>did not 'cook' anything to get the answers right. > >I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz >did cook. > >Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has >ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9 >to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms >get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has >been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit >that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning. It's more likely Rebel9 did not learn because the Swedish test without the "A" option. Some 6-7 months ago I went through the Rebel9 SSDF games to verify this. I stopped counting after 100 games. Rebel9's learning (in auto232 mode) was disabled in all these games. >Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5 >auto232 player can collect the results. > >Let me give an example what happened. > >I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at >auto232 player against Rebel9. > >He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program >didn't win a single game versus rebel9. > >So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning >from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were >not the same as he turned off learning. > >This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9? >It was quickly solved when i got back the games. > >Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it >lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves >or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the >auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had >mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or >3 fold repetition. > >Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in >which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game: > >rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game, >and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or >had mated diep, it showed that rebel won. Well Vincent... there are enough people who can confirm the below description of Rebel9 being in auto232 mode. I think you either have your facts wrong or you are not so good informed. The text is taken from the Rebel Home Page. [ BEGIN ] The Rebel autoplayer (since version 7.0) is split into 2 parts: NORMAL mode · REBEL will decide games upon a score of +5.00 or -5.00 then saves the game to the database and start a new game. This will avoid un-needed long games. · REBEL will (automatically) terminate a game that already has been played during the match. This will avoid many double games and will speed-up auto232 matches tremendously. · REBEL will (automatically) terminate a game that is a draw. Typical cases are KRKR, KQKQ, KBK, KNK etc. etc. This will avoid un-needed long games. · REBEL does not learn in this mode. TOURNAMENT mode · REBEL will play on its strongest. Always use TOURNAMENT mode in case important computer-computer events. · To enter TOURNAMENT mode you have to start REBEL with the A parameter. Example: REBEL.EXE A · Contrary to "Normal mode" REBEL will not automatically decide games but will play all games till checkmate. · Contrary to "Normal mode" REBEL will not terminate double games. · Contrary to "Normal mode" REBEL will not terminate typical drawn games. · REBEL will learn in "Tournament mode". · Learning in "Tournament mode" is based on book-learning and position-learning. [ END ] Using TOURNAMENT mode scores of the games are untouched always having a "?" in the game result. In Normal mode Rebel9 will decide upon the -5.00 / +5.00 bound to include a "0-1" or "1-0" in the game result. Also in clear draw cases draw score is put in the game result. The match score on the screen is an exact reflection of the games in the database. I think you just forgot to create a "new Rebel database" before you started auto232. As a result you were investigating old games from previous auto232 matches too. Ed >People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have >the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and >pass that on. >Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW >THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion. > >Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled >(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent. > >Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened. >So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game. >For example: >After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1. >Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect >a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played, >and some whizzkids here might slowly see how >silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form >of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books. > >Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet. >Without learning you can go home. > >Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird. > >He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz >plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is >laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the >nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32 > >Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this. > >If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered >to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20 > >minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating >programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking >advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after >it stores a game, the only way to beat them? > >We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5 >can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker, >the best one money would be able to buy. > >You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs! > >Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel! >But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second, >where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second >or something. > >Vincent Diepeveen
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