Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 05:35:07 02/25/99
Go up one level in this thread
On February 25, 1999 at 08:06:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On February 25, 1999 at 07:09:26, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On February 24, 1999 at 22:06:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On February 24, 1999 at 16:04:41, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>> >>>>>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz did >>>>>not 'cook' anything to get the answers right. >>>> >>>>I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz >>>>did cook. >>>> >>>>Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has >>>>ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9 >>>>to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms >>>>get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has >>>>been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit >>>>that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning. >>>> >>> >>>I disagree with the above. The 'shortcoming' is in Rebel, _not_ in Fritz. >>>IE if you can't learn when alternating colors, what good is learning, since >>>_most_ real tournaments do alternate? >> >>>I've said it before.. what you can fix on _your_ end you should. In this >>>case, it is a strange design decision indeed that says you have to play N >>>games same color to learn anything... >> >>Comon get real Bob, >> >>You make a protocol, and i'll invent something to cheat with it. >> >>Example when playing crafty using winboard protocol one can easy >>set up a position every move, and prevent crafty from learning then. >> > >Nope.. 'position learning' still works so it still won't 'repeat' losing >lines forever. Noop. you can't write your learning files. See below >>For every protocol one can invent such things. We have a protocol to >>play each other, now unless the protocol is the protocol of a fool, >>we can expect that we use a chessgame to fight, and not the protocol. >> >>For every protocol you make i can make my own autoplayer that prevents >>you from learning! >I'll take that bet... this is just 'incomplete programming'. The auto232 >protocol doesn't allow one side to prevent the other from learning. If the >program requires some 'key' from auto232 to 'learn' that is a bad design. If >the program depends on N games with the same color, that is a bad design. But >I'll bet you can play crafty all the auto232 games you want it _it_ won't fail >to learn whatever you do. Even if you hit ^C to terminate it in the middle of >a game, it will 'learn'. Before we start playing i simply writeprotect your directory. As in my autoplayer the protocol says that you must handle that yourselve. Of course crafty gets killed after a game Then it gets reloaded. I will repeat my game... And if this doesn't work then i try things at home till i find a gap in crafty. If i have found this gap then i will consirably score better against it. >>This is what happens here. >>Ed says suddenly something else now, meaning that more games it didn't >>learn, but from Karlsson i received confirmation that Fritz doesn't >>send the 'save the game' command. > > >So I should write code that depends on "my opponent" to trigger my learning? > >As they say in the Navy, "Not on _my_ watch." Well the watch always forgets that he has written down that he must watch, so he'll not watch. >> >>Now i don't know how fritz5.16 represents results on the screen after an >>auto232 session as this autoplayer is secret, so we can expect something >>that suits chessbase. >> >>>>Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5 >>>>auto232 player can collect the results. >>>> >>>>Let me give an example what happened. >>>> >>>>I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at >>>>auto232 player against Rebel9. >>>> >>>>He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program >>>>didn't win a single game versus rebel9. >>>> >>>>So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning >>>>from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were >>>>not the same as he turned off learning. >>>> >>>>This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9? >>>>It was quickly solved when i got back the games. >>>> >>>>Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it >>>>lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves >>>>or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the >>>>auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had >>>>mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or >>>>3 fold repetition. >>>> >>>>Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in >>>>which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game: >>>> >>>>rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game, >>>>and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or >>>>had mated diep, it showed that rebel won. >>>> >>>>People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have >>>>the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and >>>>pass that on. >>>> >>>>Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW >>>>THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion. >>>> >>>>Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled >>>>(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent. >>>> >>>>Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened. >>>>So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game. >>>> >>>>For example: >>>>After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1. >>>>Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect >>>>a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played, >>>>and some whizzkids here might slowly see how >>>>silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form >>>>of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books. >>>> >>>>Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet. >>>>Without learning you can go home. >>>> >>>>Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird. >>>> >>>>He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz >>>>plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is >>>>laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the >>>>nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32 >>>> >>>>Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this. >>>> >>>>If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered >>>>to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20 >>>>minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating >>>>programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking >>>>advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after >>>>it stores a game, the only way to beat them? >>>> >>>>We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5 >>>>can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker, >>>>the best one money would be able to buy. >>>> >>>>You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs! >>>> >>>>Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel! >>>>But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second, >>>>where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second >>>>or something. >>>> >>>>Vincent Diepeveen
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