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Subject: Re: Fritz5 cooking at SSDF and Nunn test set

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 05:35:07 02/25/99

Go up one level in this thread


On February 25, 1999 at 08:06:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On February 25, 1999 at 07:09:26, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On February 24, 1999 at 22:06:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 24, 1999 at 16:04:41, Dann Corbit wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz did
>>>>>not 'cook' anything to get the answers right.
>>>>
>>>>I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz
>>>>did cook.
>>>>
>>>>Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has
>>>>ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9
>>>>to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms
>>>>get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has
>>>>been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit
>>>>that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I disagree with the above.  The 'shortcoming' is in Rebel, _not_ in Fritz.
>>>IE if you can't learn when alternating colors, what good is learning, since
>>>_most_ real tournaments do alternate?
>>
>>>I've said it before.. what you can fix on _your_ end you should.  In this
>>>case, it is a strange design decision indeed that says you have to play N
>>>games same color to learn anything...
>>
>>Comon get real Bob,
>>
>>You make a protocol, and i'll invent something to cheat with it.
>>
>>Example when playing crafty using winboard protocol one can easy
>>set up a position every move, and prevent crafty from learning then.
>>
>
>Nope.. 'position learning' still works so it still won't 'repeat' losing
>lines forever.

Noop. you can't write your learning files. See below

>>For every protocol one can invent such things. We have a protocol to
>>play each other, now unless the protocol is the protocol of a fool,
>>we can expect that we use a chessgame to fight, and not the protocol.
>>
>>For every protocol you make i can make my own autoplayer that prevents
>>you from learning!


>I'll take that bet...  this is just 'incomplete programming'.  The auto232
>protocol doesn't allow one side to prevent the other from learning.  If the
>program requires some 'key' from auto232 to 'learn' that is a bad design.  If
>the program depends on N games with the same color, that is a bad design.  But
>I'll bet you can play crafty all the auto232 games you want it _it_ won't fail
>to learn whatever you do.  Even if you hit ^C to terminate it in the middle of
>a game, it will 'learn'.

Before we start playing i simply writeprotect your directory.

As in my autoplayer the protocol says that you must handle that yourselve.
Of course crafty gets killed after a game

Then it gets reloaded. I will repeat my game...

And if this doesn't work then i try things at home till i find a gap
in crafty. If i have found this gap then i will consirably score better
against it.

>>This is what happens here.

>>Ed says suddenly something else now, meaning that more games it didn't
>>learn, but from Karlsson i received confirmation that Fritz doesn't
>>send the 'save the game' command.
>
>
>So I should write code that depends on "my opponent" to trigger my learning?
>
>As they say in the Navy, "Not on _my_ watch."

Well the watch always forgets that he has written down that he must watch,
so he'll not watch.

>>
>>Now i don't know how fritz5.16 represents results on the screen after an
>>auto232 session as this autoplayer is secret, so we can expect something
>>that suits chessbase.
>>
>>>>Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5
>>>>auto232 player can collect the results.
>>>>
>>>>Let me give an example what happened.
>>>>
>>>>I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at
>>>>auto232 player against Rebel9.
>>>>
>>>>He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program
>>>>didn't win a single game versus rebel9.
>>>>
>>>>So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning
>>>>from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were
>>>>not the same as he turned off learning.
>>>>
>>>>This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9?
>>>>It was quickly solved when i got back the games.
>>>>
>>>>Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it
>>>>lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves
>>>>or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the
>>>>auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had
>>>>mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or
>>>>3 fold repetition.
>>>>
>>>>Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in
>>>>which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game:
>>>>
>>>>rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game,
>>>>and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or
>>>>had mated diep, it showed that rebel won.
>>>>
>>>>People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have
>>>>the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and
>>>>pass that on.
>>>>
>>>>Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW
>>>>THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion.
>>>>
>>>>Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled
>>>>(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent.
>>>>
>>>>Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened.
>>>>So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game.
>>>>
>>>>For example:
>>>>After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1.
>>>>Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect
>>>>a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played,
>>>>and some whizzkids here might slowly see how
>>>>silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form
>>>>of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books.
>>>>
>>>>Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet.
>>>>Without learning you can go home.
>>>>
>>>>Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird.
>>>>
>>>>He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz
>>>>plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is
>>>>laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the
>>>>nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32
>>>>
>>>>Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this.
>>>>
>>>>If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered
>>>>to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20
>>>>minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating
>>>>programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking
>>>>advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after
>>>>it stores a game, the only way to beat them?
>>>>
>>>>We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5
>>>>can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker,
>>>>the best one money would be able to buy.
>>>>
>>>>You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs!
>>>>
>>>>Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel!
>>>>But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second,
>>>>where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second
>>>>or something.
>>>>
>>>>Vincent Diepeveen



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