Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 08:20:34 02/26/99
Go up one level in this thread
On February 25, 1999 at 08:35:07, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On February 25, 1999 at 08:06:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On February 25, 1999 at 07:09:26, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On February 24, 1999 at 22:06:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On February 24, 1999 at 17:48:10, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 24, 1999 at 16:04:41, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>I have an email from Frederic Friedel, and I am fully convinced that Fritz did >>>>>>not 'cook' anything to get the answers right. >>>>> >>>>>I got the same email from Frederic and i'm completely convinced that Fritz >>>>>did cook. >>>>> >>>>>Frederic is playing the innocence himselve, but in the meantime he has >>>>>ordered to make an auto232 player for fritz that doesn't allow rebel9 >>>>>to learn, that exchanges colors so that other learners of other chessprograms >>>>>get confused, and that's just the top of the iceberg. This top has >>>>>been confirmed by Karlsson, which i honour for being so nice to admit >>>>>that fritz autoplayer doesn't allow learning. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I disagree with the above. The 'shortcoming' is in Rebel, _not_ in Fritz. >>>>IE if you can't learn when alternating colors, what good is learning, since >>>>_most_ real tournaments do alternate? >>> >>>>I've said it before.. what you can fix on _your_ end you should. In this >>>>case, it is a strange design decision indeed that says you have to play N >>>>games same color to learn anything... >>> >>>Comon get real Bob, >>> >>>You make a protocol, and i'll invent something to cheat with it. >>> >>>Example when playing crafty using winboard protocol one can easy >>>set up a position every move, and prevent crafty from learning then. >>> >> >>Nope.. 'position learning' still works so it still won't 'repeat' losing >>lines forever. > >Noop. you can't write your learning files. See below > >>>For every protocol one can invent such things. We have a protocol to >>>play each other, now unless the protocol is the protocol of a fool, >>>we can expect that we use a chessgame to fight, and not the protocol. >>> >>>For every protocol you make i can make my own autoplayer that prevents >>>you from learning! > > >>I'll take that bet... this is just 'incomplete programming'. The auto232 >>protocol doesn't allow one side to prevent the other from learning. If the >>program requires some 'key' from auto232 to 'learn' that is a bad design. If >>the program depends on N games with the same color, that is a bad design. But >>I'll bet you can play crafty all the auto232 games you want it _it_ won't fail >>to learn whatever you do. Even if you hit ^C to terminate it in the middle of >>a game, it will 'learn'. > >Before we start playing i simply writeprotect your directory. > >As in my autoplayer the protocol says that you must handle that yourselve. >Of course crafty gets killed after a game > >Then it gets reloaded. I will repeat my game... I don't buy that as a 'fix'. Because if you try it in crafty, you'll find it simply plays _without_ the book. Even worse, you will find it crashes before doing _anything_. And that would not lead to a game. And there is no way to protect against 'external' stuff like that, because you could also use a debugger and modify my executable to play differently by zeroing a few things here and there. We were talking about the _engine-to-engine_ protocol. _not_ about what the operator could do externally. But in any case, you write protect my directory, I cant play. The book files won't open (I have w+ because of learning), the position learning files won't open (which will crash me) and the log files won't open (same result). > >And if this doesn't work then i try things at home till i find a gap >in crafty. If i have found this gap then i will consirably score better >against it. > no protection from that, except you will only get away with it for one game, before it 'learns' not to play that opening line again. >>>This is what happens here. > >>>Ed says suddenly something else now, meaning that more games it didn't >>>learn, but from Karlsson i received confirmation that Fritz doesn't >>>send the 'save the game' command. >> >> >>So I should write code that depends on "my opponent" to trigger my learning? >> >>As they say in the Navy, "Not on _my_ watch." > >Well the watch always forgets that he has written down that he must watch, >so he'll not watch. > >>> >>>Now i don't know how fritz5.16 represents results on the screen after an >>>auto232 session as this autoplayer is secret, so we can expect something >>>that suits chessbase. >>> >>>>>Even more important than disallowing learning is the fact that only fritz5 >>>>>auto232 player can collect the results. >>>>> >>>>>Let me give an example what happened. >>>>> >>>>>I got about 6 months ago a call from a tester who played around 20 games at >>>>>auto232 player against Rebel9. >>>>> >>>>>He told me that i should stop chessprogram development, as my program >>>>>didn't win a single game versus rebel9. >>>>> >>>>>So i first asked whether all games were more or less the same (learning >>>>>from rebel9 you never know...). He told me clearly that the games were >>>>>not the same as he turned off learning. >>>>> >>>>>This confused me. How can one not win a SINGLE Game vs rebel9? >>>>>It was quickly solved when i got back the games. >>>>> >>>>>Diep won lucky several games, but those games were long. The games it >>>>>lost were short (short after book). Diep was mated within say 50 moves >>>>>or something. The games diep won were all 60 moves, after which the >>>>>auto232 game stopped the games. However none of the games diep had >>>>>mated rebel9. Further a big bunch of the games were clear draws, or >>>>>3 fold repetition. >>>>> >>>>>Now diep doesn't collect game results. Rebel does, and the WAY in >>>>>which it does caused the confusion that diep didn't win a single game: >>>>> >>>>>rebel9 screen showed a questionmark where diep won the game, >>>>>and some draws got a questionmark too. Where rebel9 was winning, or >>>>>had mated diep, it showed that rebel won. >>>>> >>>>>People that auto232 play are usually very very lazy, and they have >>>>>the right to be so. So they simply see what is at the screen and >>>>>pass that on. >>>>> >>>>>Now this is i think very important to realize. ONLY FRITZ5 CAN SHOW >>>>>THE RESULT OF THE GAME, which might give the same confusion. >>>>> >>>>>Every new game that gets started the opponents learning is fooled >>>>>(if it has learning), and the number of games played is very inconsequent. >>>>> >>>>>Please check out the games of fritz5 versus mchesspro and see what happened. >>>>>So don't look to the ENDRESULT of it, but do it game by game. >>>>> >>>>>For example: >>>>>After the first game it was 1-0, after the second game it was 1-1. >>>>>Please do that for all games, so if 40 games are played i expect >>>>>a graph of 40 dots, also write down what openings line was played, >>>>>and some whizzkids here might slowly see how >>>>>silly SSDF playing is, and what the influence of a topdown form >>>>>of learning is when you play too much games with 2 small books. >>>>> >>>>>Yes DIEP is not yet at SSDF, because its learning doesn't work yet. >>>>>Without learning you can go home. >>>>> >>>>>Now this naive email from Frederic to me and to corbit is kind of weird. >>>>> >>>>>He as the boss must have known everything. His assumption that fritz >>>>>plays simply very good in the opening when playing on its own, is >>>>>laughable. That doesn't explain the difference of playing at the >>>>>nunn test set from 5.16 versus 5.32 >>>>> >>>>>Please post an open email about that here Frederic. I know you read this. >>>>> >>>>>If you are already reading that, then tell us why you have ordered >>>>>to make your own auto232 player special for SSDF, instead of a 20 >>>>>minutes implementation of the donninger autoplayer. Was beating >>>>>programs more important than 'how' to beat them? Was beating them, taking >>>>>advantage of the protocol and the fact that rebel learns only after >>>>>it stores a game, the only way to beat them? >>>>> >>>>>We hear that you too do a lot of efforts to play as well as fritz5 >>>>>can do. If i were in your shoes i would get myselve a good bookmaker, >>>>>the best one money would be able to buy. >>>>> >>>>>You better prepare, i plan to kick butt of fritz5 in world champs! >>>>> >>>>>Just like Bob i've prepared in a different way. I plan to run parallel! >>>>>But don't worry, even a quad xeon system gives diep 60k nodes a second, >>>>>where fritz gets at a PII-450 already a quarter of a million nodes a second >>>>>or something. >>>>> >>>>>Vincent Diepeveen
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