Author: David Mitchell
Date: 00:47:40 09/03/05
Go up one level in this thread
On September 02, 2005 at 21:55:59, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 02, 2005 at 21:30:08, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>On September 02, 2005 at 21:03:08, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On September 02, 2005 at 19:35:21, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>On September 02, 2005 at 13:29:11, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 01, 2005 at 22:00:52, David Mitchell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 01, 2005 at 19:57:26, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 01, 2005 at 16:50:38, David Mitchell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note that I am one of the members of the Israeli >>>>>>>chess rating committee(the committe is not only about rating but rating is one >>>>>>>of the subjects that they deal with it). >>>>>>>Members are all volunteers and we do not get money for it but it is important >>>>>>>for me to have a better rating system and it is clear that without a new >program it will not be easy to make changes in the rating system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I also have part of the data because GM Ram Sofer(the person who is resposible >>>>>>>for using the software that they have in the last months) sent me some access >>>>>>>files. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Personally I know almost nothing about access so I simply translated the >columns to text files by copy and paste and wrote some program in C to >calculate statistics about the text files. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think that it is even better if the Israeli chess organization get rid of all >>>>>>>the access and simply save the results in text files and use some C program to >>>>>>>read text files and analyze them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Trust me, Uri. You don't want to do that. You need a spreadsheet or a database >>>>>>program, or both. Too many benefits to list them all, but having different >>>>>>people work in diverse locations, with "some C program", is not what you want. >>>>>> >>>>>>Use Excel for a day, and you'll never want to go back to anything like this. You >>>>>>should be able to pick up an older (but perfectly good), version of Excel, by >>>>>>some company that has decided to upgrade to the latest version. >>>>>> >>>>>>Should be able to get it for very little money. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>In that case if there is a mistake people only need to edit the text files. >>>>>> >>>>>>Oh yeah, there will be mistakes, count on it! >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note that I already have a program to analyze text files but the format of my >>>>>>>text file today is not good for editing because of the way that I copied the >>>>>>>data. >>>>>> >>>>>>There you go! No "homegrown" program will have half the features you will really >>>>>>want, or be half as easy to train others to use. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I copied the data from the access file by copy and paste so I copied long >>>>>>>columns that is clearly easier than copying small lines that have only details >>>>>>>about a single game. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You should just use the Export data function. You can export your data in >>>>>>several formats, including ascii (text). >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for your advice >>>>> >>>>>Note that only now I am near a computer that can read the access files because >>>>>access is not installed in other computers but using the export data function is >>>>>very good idea. >>>>> >>>>>It is a different format but I get all the table as a text in few seconds >>>>>instead of getting it in few hours. >>>>> >>>>>If I understand correctly you say that using Excel is better than using access. >>>>>I did not know that it is so easy to translate access files to excel files. >>>> >>>>Export from Access. It will take you two minutes. >>> >>>I already found it and translated the data both to text files and to excel files >>>and sent the data to myself by gmail so I can read it from every computer. >>> >>>> >>>>I do not think Excel will be easier than Access. >>>> >>>>Leaving the data in MS Access will be better because you can apply rules to a >>>>database and you cannot apply rules to a spreadsheet. >>>> >>>>I have seen multi-million dollar disasters caused by using spreadsheets where a >>>>database should have been used. >>> >>>What was the problem? >> >>The project was called "Budget Workbench". >> >>The idea was that people all over the world would fill up spreadsheets with data >>and then the spreadsheets would be used to put data into a database. Of course, >>once I understood what they were trying to do, I knew that the project was >>hopelessly doomed. >> >>You cannot have thousands and thousands of freeform spreadsheets collected and >>expect that the integrity of the data contained in the spreadsheets is perfect. >>It is obviously going to fail. >> >>Now, with a database, you will have the same kinds of problems but they are self >>correcting. >> >>Suppose, for instance, that I have a database of chess players. One of the >>chess players is named Uri Blass. >> >>I want to enter some new game results for Uri Blass and so I try to add a record >>but spell the name incorrectly as 'Uri Balss.' The data entry form can have a >>trigger on it or a relation on it or a rule on it to recognize the problem and >>throw an error. Well, if there are 10,000 typing mistakes, we still get 10,000 >>errors thrown, just like in the spreadsheet model, so where is the improvement? >>The improvement is that the errors are reported to the users as they make the >>errors and then can correct it on the spot. > > >This type of problem is in the israeli chess organization. > >In the discussion in the israeli forum >Ram Sofer claimed that for every player it is possible to find out what are his >results since 1998. > >Oded Ross replied that only if the player is not written in the israeli chess >organization in 2 or 3 names and there are examples that it is the case. > >Uri Uri, the problems that you have with the league, and the problems that Dann is mentioning, are problems with PEOPLE, primarily, not software, and not "database models". Give you an example. We bought an expensive relational database to keep data on about 3,000 workers and contractors. Had some experts in to help set it up, learned how to use it, etc. Fine, fine. Next week, our 3,000 records were all entered, but had now grown to 12,000! What had happened? My clerk had hit the wrong key, 4 times, in the course of the week. Each time the wrong key was pressed, at the wrong time, the database duplicated itself! My point is despite the best laid plans of everyone, the old saying is still true: "When you build a safer system, the idiots of the world will only rise to new heights of idiotic creativity." You always keep TWO backup's, of everything, one at the end of each day's work, one at the end of each week, and one at the end of each month. Yes, that's a lot of backups, but data files can compress very small. And you keep each of these data backup sets in SEPARATE (safe) locations, and on good medium. Everything Dann said about database security is true - but the human factor for errors was understated, in my opinion. Also, not every league or business, can afford a database manager, to set up and oversee their database model. Using careful people to input /update/ manage the data is always critical. If you are editing some records of existing players, and suddenly no data is found for one of your members, you can't just ADD him in as a new player. If he's been a member before, it's obvious the request for his data was misspelled, or some other error took place. ADDING in an obviously prior member, should NOT be an option. Good luck, Uri Dave
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