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Subject: Re: An Experiment that disproves Hyatt's 1000X NPS Theory

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 21:34:50 09/17/05

Go up one level in this thread


On September 18, 2005 at 00:28:19, Ryan B. wrote:

>On September 17, 2005 at 23:49:59, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 17, 2005 at 23:32:46, Ryan B. wrote:
>>
>>>On September 17, 2005 at 21:53:26, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 17, 2005 at 12:49:06, Ryan B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I thought this rediculess theory was proven wrong with the Crafty vs Rebel thing
>>>>>a long time ago.  It is far more complicated than just the NPS loss in move
>>>>>ording, pruning, reduction checks, and extention checks that all can improve a
>>>>>program while reducing the NPS.  As well what is known by the eval function and
>>>>>how it is used can be much more valuable than even another few ply searched but
>>>>>causing a very large loss in NPS.  Hiarcs on slow hardware vs GNU Chess on fast
>>>>>hardware should show a good example of this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What was proven wrong?
>>>>
>>>>We played exactly one game with crafty vs rebel, with the time handicap.  Ed
>>>>later played another match with a _completely_ different result (his chess 2010
>>>>or whatever it was.
>>>>
>>>>I'd say that shredder is clearly better than current crafty.  Anyone want to
>>>>give me 1000:1 time odds and play a match?
>>>>
>>>>Just name the when/where...
>>>>
>>>>I _know_ how such a match will turn out...
>>>
>>>Take null move out and I know the result as well.  You might get shocked....
>>>again.
>>
>>I've not been shocked the _first_ time yet.
>>
>>And I also have no idea what null-move has to do with this.  Should I also take
>>out search extensions?  The evaluation?  Endgame tables?  Should I just play
>>using a text editor?
>>
>>Again, two programs that are reasonable, if one goes way faster, it will win way
>>more.  And nothing is going to shock that out of me...
>
>
>How could the Rebel vs craft game even if just one game not shock you?  Also I
>would like to know why a person with your experiance and enducation would say
>"if one that goes way faster" knowing "way faster" can be defined in many
>differant ways and you are destine to be taken out of context with such a
>comment.

10x faster is a significant advantage.  100x is more significant.  1000x is more
significant.  What is ambiguous about that?



>  If you mean much faster hardware than you have a solid but not
>flawless statment

This has _always_ been about faster hardware.  Not lobotomizing a chess engine
which would make absolutely no sense in any sort of "scientific test".


>  If you mean much higher NPS your statment is simply wrong.


Nope.  Faster hardware _always_ equals faster NPS for a given program.   So it
isn't "simply wrong".  If you want to somehow imagine that I said that taking
two programs on the same computer, and the faster NPS program will win, then you
are free to do so.  But I certainly never said, nor implied such a thing.  Feel
free to dig up a context-complete quote where I did, of course, although I know
such a thing can't be found.


>If you mean something else please explain.


I meant exactly what I said.



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