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Subject: Re: Wrong Reasoning by Hyatt

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 08:28:56 09/19/05

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On September 19, 2005 at 09:28:52, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:

>On September 18, 2005 at 10:30:50, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 18, 2005 at 07:04:36, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>
>>>On September 17, 2005 at 21:51:04, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 17, 2005 at 17:10:00, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 17, 2005 at 13:42:07, Albert Silver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 17, 2005 at 10:04:32, ALI MIRAFZALI wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hyatt has claimed many times that a Nodes Per Second Factor of one thousand
>>>>>>>times would not be overcome by the program with the less Nodes per second.In
>>>>>>>this Experiment it was shown conclusively that this is false .Although I played
>>>>>>>4 games ,I do not think the result would have been different if I had played a
>>>>>>>hundred more.Time Control 40 MOVES IN 2 HOURS followed by sudden death in 1
>>>>>>>hour.Hardware: GNU CHESS 4.11 a program from 1996 ran a celeron 1.8 Gig machine
>>>>>>>;Chess Tiger on Palm ran on the Palm Tungten E.NODES PER SECOND:ON THE
>>>>>>>AVERAGE:CHESSTIGER ON PALM 500 per second ,GNU CHESS 4.11 500000 per second on
>>>>>>>the celeron 1.8 Gig.1000X DIFFERENCE.Hyatt and some other people have always
>>>>>>>argued about the supremecy of DeepBlue based on its speed.I think these days
>>>>>>>these arguments are false;and Speed does not mean as much as it used to.Deep
>>>>>>>blue would be crushed by todays program's.A lot of STRENGTH is EVALUATION
>>>>>>>FUNCTION.Take a look at these games:
>>>>>>>Match ended in 2-2 draw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The idea of testing this is certainly interesting but the conditions seem rather
>>>>>>dubious IMHO. For one thing, 4 games really is COMPLETELY meaningless, andwith
>>>>>>all due respect to claim you don't think the result could have been different
>>>>>>shows how much you don't understand this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BTW, does Tiger really only get 500 nodes per second on your Palm? That seems
>>>>>>ridiculously low. I don't have Tiger, nor a Palm for that matter, but on my Dell
>>>>>>Pocket PC at 624MHz, I get about 50,000 nps on average for Fruit 2.1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Note that if one is to believe the results of Hiarcs site
>>>>>>(http://www.hiarcs.com/phresults.htm), Tiger on the Palm has inordinately bad
>>>>>>results (they claim it plays over 400 points worse than Hiarcs on identical
>>>>>>hardware, which is HUGE), so perhaps it isn't the ideal choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                                        Albert
>>>>>Yes indeed Tiger does get 500 Nps on the palm Tungsten E.Note that it is Hyatt's
>>>>>claim that I am disproving.According to him a NPS of 1000X factor would be
>>>>>impossible to overcome even in 4 games
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, what you are disproving is a false statement you are making.  Since I never
>>>>said what you claim, it would be just a bit difficult to disprove it, since it
>>>>was never said.
>>>>
>>>>Grow up or try again...
>>>What???  you have made this remark many times.Of course due to the volume of
>>>your remarks I cant pin point the exact time and day.
>>
>>
>>You can't point it out because I didn't say that.
>>
>>Again, whenever you want to try a 1000:1 handicap match using the program of
>>your choice vs Crafty, step right up...  But none of this "lets take program X,
>>then remove features Y and Z and use that."
>Look at the 4 game match nothing was removed .Why did this remove this remove
>that come into the conversation?

Because gnuchess 4 was not a very strong program given equal hardware, and
comparing it to _any_ program of the chess-tiger palm era.  Effectively you took
a program from today, and removed features (to turn it into gnuchess 4, a
10-year old program) for the comparison.

Pick a reasonable program from today and play that match.  Then you will get a
feel for what a factor of 1000 is really worth.  And we can end this argument
quickly...  Don't pick something that is completely non-competitive and then use
that to produce data to support your point of view, it is poor science...



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