Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 12:38:30 09/29/05
Go up one level in this thread
On September 29, 2005 at 12:54:27, Uri Blass wrote: >On September 29, 2005 at 12:29:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On September 29, 2005 at 09:26:52, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On September 29, 2005 at 01:29:07, K. Burcham wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Thanks for your reply Robert. Always like reading your comments about Deep Blue. >>>>Of course we both know that the h5 move in game five has been discussed many >>>>times. Here is Fruit 2.1. >>>>John if you read this, what does chessmaster do with default settings in this >>>>position? >>>> >>>>Fruit 2.1 >>>>432 hash >>>>Athlon 64 >>>>764 pin >>>>2200 mhz >>>> >>>>h5 in five seconds. >>>> >>>> [D] r2qk2r/pp3ppp/2p1pn2/4n3/1b6/3P2PP/PPPN1PB1/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 4 1 >>>> >>>>00:00:00.0 0.71 5 14645 O-O f4 Ng6 O-O Nd5 >>>>00:00:00.1 0.60 6 59452 O-O a3 Bc5 Nb3 Qb6 O-O >>>>00:00:00.2 0.27 7 200589 O-O O-O Qb6 Nf3 Bd6 Re1 Ng6 >>>>00:00:00.4 0.24 8 407698 O-O O-O Qb6 Re1 Bd6 Ne4 Nxe4 Bxe4 f5 >>>>00:00:01.1 0.18 9 1011530 O-O O-O Nd5 Re1 Qc7 d4 Ng6 c4 Nf6 >>>>00:00:02.5 0.04 10 2475965 O-O O-O Nd5 Re1 Qc7 Qe2 Ng6 c3 Bc5 Nc4 >>>>00:00:04.2 0.11 10 4088578 h5 a3 Bd6 Ne4 Nxe4 Bxe4 f5 Bg2 Bc5 Bd2 Kf7 >>>>00:00:07.8 0.11 11 7518463 h5 Qe2 Bd6 f4 Ng6 Nc4 h4 f5 Bxg3+ Kd1 Nf8 Bd2 >>>>00:00:19.3 0.00 12 18830729 h5 O-O h4 d4 Qxd4 c3 Qb6 cxb4 hxg3 Qb3 gxf2+ Rxf2 >>>>Qd4 b5 >>>>00:00:41.3 -0.05 13 40615296 h5 O-O h4 d4 Qxd4 c3 Qb6 cxb4 hxg3 Qe2 Ned7 Nc4 >>>>gxf2+ Rxf2 Qxb4 >>>>00:02:17.0 0.00 14 133102696 h5 Qe2 Qc7 O-O h4 Ne4 Be7 Be3 Nd5 d4 Nxe3 fxe3 Nd7 >>>>Qf2 O-O gxh4 >>>>00:05:17.0 0.08 15 307648549 h5 Qe2 Qc7 c3 Be7 Ne4 h4 Nxf6+ Bxf6 g4 Ng6 Be4 Nf4 >>>>Bxf4 Qxf4 d4 O-O O-O >>>>00:10:54.5 0.07 16 633368278 h5 Qe2 Qc7 c3 Be7 Ne4 h4 Nxf6+ Bxf6 g4 O-O-O d4 Ng6 >>>>Be4 Nf4 Bxf4 Qxf4 Qe3 Bg5 >>>>00:16:44.6 -0.02 17 977058195 h5 Qe2 Qc7 c3 Be7 h4 O-O-O d4 Neg4 Nc4 Nd5 O-O Bf6 >>>>f3 Nh6 Bxh6 Rxh6 f4 >>>>00:42:35.1 -0.02 18 -1805878841 h5 Qe2 Qc7 c3 Be7 h4 O-O-O d4 Neg4 Nc4 Nd5 O-O >>>>Bf6 a4 Kb8 Re1 Be7 Be4 >>>>01:17:57.7 -0.06 19 267945229 h5 Qe2 Qc7 c3 Be7 h4 O-O-O d4 Neg4 Nc4 Nd5 O-O Bf6 >>>>Re1 g6 Bf3 Kb8 Bd2 c5 Bxg4 hxg4 dxc5 Qxc5 Qxg4 >>>> >>>>Rematch >>>>Place: New York, NY USA >>>>Round: 5 >>>>Date: 10/5/1997 >>>>White: Kasparov, Garry >>>>Black: Deep Blue >>>> >>>>Kasparov's comments about 11...h5 >>>>Kasparov said no computer can play 11...h5 without human interference. >>> >>>Nonsense >>> >>>11...h5 is very logical for computer to play. >>>It increase the mobility of the rook at h8 so there is no reason for computers >>>not to play it. >> >>Sorry, but I _totally_ disagree there. Most any decent computer chess program >>has an evaluation component that covers the king-side pawn structure. Playing >>h5 creates a pawn target for black to aim at. It weakens g5 and g6. So a >>computer has to see something _else_ to more than offset that king safety issue. > > >I know for sure that mobility of the rook based on number of moves is one of the >component of Fruit's evaluation. > >There are other components but the possibility that mobility of the rook is more >important than them is not illogical If making a _major_ decision like playing h5 is based completely on adding two vertical squares for the rook to reach, then that seems wrong. Mobility is fine, but there is "mobility" and there is _MOBILITY_. The latter is really a case of useful mobility in multiple directions... The idea may be just fine. But again, it is easily possible to play the right move for the wrong reason. If mobility is the only thing that makes "h5" jump to the top of the search, then that is simply broken reasoning... Otherwise you would be seeing h5 pop up all the time and as often as not, it is a bad move. Every pawn move is inherently bad in fact, and making one over there has to have a point to offset the loss of control at g6/g5 at least... > > >> >>I suspect _many_ strong computers will _not_ play this move, for the reason >>given above, since any long-term gain by the move is way beyond any search >>horizon, and is going to be purely based on positional scoring numbers.. >> >>Mobility of the rook is a lousy reason for h5. Otherwise black would always be >>playing a5 and h5 to give both rooks more mobility... > >mobility of knight and bishop is more important in the opening so Fruit prefers >to develop them in the opening but it certainly gives a bonus for having more >moves with the rook. > >Here is part of the code of fruit2.1. > >It gives bonus of 0.02 pawns for every possible rook move in the opening(it is >practically average between 0.02 and 0.04 based on the stage of the game) when >it gives bonus of 0.05 pawns for every bishop moves and 0.04 pawns for every >knight move > >Mobility of the rook is not the only reason that push fruit to choose h5 but it >is probably one of them. > >static const int KnightMobOpening = 4; >static const int KnightMobEndgame = 4; >static const int BishopMobOpening = 5; >static const int BishopMobEndgame = 5; >static const int RookMobOpening = 2; >static const int RookMobEndgame = 4; >static const int QueenMobOpening = 1; >static const int QueenMobEndgame = 2; >static const int KingMobOpening = 0; >static const int KingMobEndgame = 0; > >Uri there is nothing wrong with any of those, just so the "RookMobOpening" is not able to force moves like h5 for no other reason.
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