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Subject: Re: Shredder fans: results about S8 vs S9

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 08:52:22 10/03/05

Go up one level in this thread


On October 03, 2005 at 11:04:15, Henrik Dinesen wrote:

>On October 02, 2005 at 11:17:56, Keith Hyams wrote:
>
>>I haven't got the sources for these comments - they are just fragments of
>>memory.
>>  The increase in Elo rating between S8 and S9 is small - not enough for me to
>>consider the upgrade. In one set of results that I saw it S9 was +2. Most
>>results tables put the increase as slightly greater and I have never seen S8
>>come out higher than S9.
>>
>>One established correspondance player stated that he used Fritz 8 instead of
>>Shredder because the "analysis of Shredder is all over the place". I was
>>intrigued by this statement because I was not sure how an engine with analysis
>>all over the place got the right answer so often. However I think it is
>>universally accepted that Shredder analysis is optimistic.
>>
>>You may want to have a look at Fruit 2.1 if you are looking for consistency in
>>output. Fruit2.1 is freeware and Fruit2.2 is commercial.
>>
>>                                  Keith
>
>Shredder 9 is more reliable than earlier versions in analysis, but I usually set
>selectivety to zero if I want more trustworthy PVs when using Shredder.
>
>Regards
>Henrik

Based on experience shredder is not reliable for analysis and it is no problem
of selectivity

[Event "10'/40+10'/40+10'/40"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2005.10.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "31"]
[TimeControl "40/600:40/600:40/600"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. Nh4 Bg4 7. h3 Bd7 8. e3
b5 9. Nf3 e6 10. Ne5 a6 11. Qf3 Ra7 12. Qg3 Rc7 13. Be2 b4 14. Nb1 c5 15. Nd2
c3 16. bxc3 *


Here is an example

The evaluation before 15...c3 is positive for white
evaluation after 15...c3 is positive for black and it is not question of time.

If you delete learning you will find that evaluation before 15...c3 can be
positive for black even after hours of search and if you delete learning you
will find that evaluation after 15...c3 is positive for black even after a short
time.


- - -, 10'/40+10'/40+10'/40
[D]1n1qkb1r/2rb1ppp/p3pn2/2p1N3/PppP4/4P1QP/1P1NBPP1/R1B1K2R b KQk - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 9 UCI:

15...cxd4
  ³  (-0.50)   Depth: 1/4   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Bxc4
  ³  (-0.67)   Depth: 1/6   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Bxc4
  ³  (-0.67)   Depth: 2/6   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Bxc4
  ³  (-0.42)   Depth: 3/8   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 dxe3
  ³  (-0.39)   Depth: 3/9   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4
  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 4/9   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 dxe3 17.0-0
  =  (-0.05)   Depth: 4/9   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 5/9   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 dxe3 17.Bxe3
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 5/9   00:00:00
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4
  ²  (0.28)   Depth: 6/10   00:00:00  8kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 dxe3 17.Bxe3 Nc6 18.0-0 Nxe5
  =  (0.17)   Depth: 6/12   00:00:00  10kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4
  ²  (0.42)   Depth: 7/13   00:00:00  14kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 Nc6
  ²  (0.42)   Depth: 7/15   00:00:00  22kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 Nc6 17.0-0 g6 18.Nxc6 Bxc6 19.exd4 Be7 20.Bf4 Rd7
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 8/18   00:00:01  51kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 Nc6 17.0-0 g6 18.Nxc6 Bxc6 19.exd4 Be7 20.Bf4 Rd7
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:02  93kN
15...cxd4 16.Ndxc4 Nc6 17.0-0 g6 18.Nxc6 Bxc6 19.exd4 Be7 20.Bf4 Ne4 21.Qe3
  ²  (0.57)   Depth: 10/23   00:00:03  225kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 10/23   00:00:03  368kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 10/23   00:00:03  369kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 11/23   00:00:04  390kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 12/23   00:00:05  616kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 13/23   00:00:06  1099kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Nb3 cxd4 18.exd4 Nc6 19.0-0 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Ne4 21.Qf3 Nc5
22.Nxc5 Bxc5
  ²  (0.53)   Depth: 14/27   00:00:08  3468kN
15...c3 16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:23  9636kN

(,  03.10.2005)

- - -, 10'/40+10'/40+10'/40
1n1qkb1r/2rb1ppp/p3pn2/2p1N3/Pp1P4/2p1P1QP/1P1NBPP1/R1B1K2R w KQk - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 9 UCI:

16.Nxd7
  µ  (-1.03)   Depth: 1/4   00:00:00
16.Nxd7
  -+  (-1.95)   Depth: 1/5   00:00:00
16.Nxd7 cxd2+ 17.Bxd2 Rxd7
  -+  (-3.21)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.0-0
  -+  (-2.87)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.0-0
  -+  (-1.93)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.0-0
  -+  (-1.93)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 1/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 2/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 3/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 4/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 5/10   00:00:00
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 6/10   00:00:00  4kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 7/10   00:00:00  12kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 8/10   00:00:00  26kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 9/10   00:00:00  26kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 10/10   00:00:01  37kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 11/11   00:00:01  99kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 12/12   00:00:03  210kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 13/13   00:00:04  424kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.0-0 Ne4 19.Qf4 Bd5 20.Rb1
  ²  (0.61)   Depth: 14/14   00:00:06  664kN
16.bxc3 bxc3
  ²  (0.36)   Depth: 15/31   00:00:08  2166kN
16.bxc3 bxc3
  =  (-0.14)   Depth: 15/31   00:00:10  4098kN
16.bxc3 bxc3 17.Ndf3 Bc6 18.Nxc6 Nxc6 19.0-0 cxd4 20.Bxa6 Qd6 21.Qxd6 Bxd6
22.exd4 h6 23.Re1 Nd5
  ³  (-0.41)   Depth: 15/31   00:00:22  9426kN

(,  03.10.2005)









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