Author: chandler yergin
Date: 17:16:38 10/11/05
Go up one level in this thread
On October 11, 2005 at 20:07:20, Dann Corbit wrote: >On October 11, 2005 at 20:02:19, chandler yergin wrote: > >>On October 11, 2005 at 19:43:16, Dann Corbit wrote: >> >>>On October 11, 2005 at 17:46:02, chandler yergin wrote: >>> >>>>I apologize if I have offended anyone. >>>>A case of "Apples & Oranges" again.. >>>>Misunderstandings.. >>>>Stephen, and a few others here, know I seldom voice "Opinions"; >>>>I Post facts.. >>>>That way... if someone differs from the Post, they should attack the Fact, >>>>not the Poster. >>>>It doesn't always work that way... >>>>Everything I have Posted about Computer Chess Programs..I gave the Link >>>>Everything else I have Posted about Engines, Analysis Modules, is directly >>>>from the Chessbase Manual. It therefore refers to the Top Commercial >>>>Programs only.. Fritz, & Shredder >>>>Many of you that Program your own Engines 'tweak' them as you desire, >>>>and have a lot of fun. >>>>Players mostly use the Top Commercial Programs to assist in their play >>>>and improve their expertise. >>>>Thanks to a recent Post by Dan H. some of the confusion has been cleared up. >>>>Chessbase does use Mini/Max and so does indeed search every legal move >>>>for every position. >>> >>>There is absolutely, postively no way on God's green earth that ChessBase is >>>using mini/max to search anything. >> >>Why do you say that? Fritz gets to over 15 ply almost instantly. > >Then either they are computing with Tachyons or they are not using mini/max. > >>>We would see a branching factor of around 20 and a 15 ply search would take >>>years to finish. >> >>Please let's settle this. Give me a FEN for any Position >>OK? > >[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - > >Here are the correct node counts by ply: >Depth Perft value Database Verified? >1 20 Verified OK! >2 400 Verified OK! >3 8902 Verified OK! >4 197281 Verified OK! >5 4865609 Verified OK! >6 119060324 Verified OK! >7 3195901860 Verified OK! >8 84998978956 Verified OK! >9 2439530234167 download (Access) Verified OK! >10 69352859712417 download (Access) Verified OK! >11 2097651003696806 download (Access) Not verified Well here's a real position, one Vincent's hard ones. 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 New game, [D]2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 5.32: 1...h3-- +- (6.22) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 1...Qg3! +- (5.69) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 1...Qg3! +- (5.69) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 1...Qg3-- +- (6.12) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 1...Qg3 2.Qb1+ Ka4 3.Ra8# +- (#2) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 1...Kb2! +- (15.75) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 1...Kb2 2.Qf6+ Ka2 3.Qxh4 +- (6.12) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 1kN 1...Ka2! +- (6.09) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 1kN 1...Qe4! +- (6.06) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 2kN 1...Qe4-- +- (6.37) Depth: 3/9 00:00:00 3kN 1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 +- (6.44) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 4kN 1...Ka2! +- (6.41) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 8kN 1...Kb2! +- (6.37) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 10kN 1...Kb2 2.Qb5+ Qb3 3.Qe2+ +- (6.28) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 11kN 1...Kb2-- +- (6.66) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 15kN 1...Kb2 +- (6.66) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 18kN 1...Qe4! +- (6.62) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 24kN 1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qc1+ +- (6.44) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 24kN 1...Qe4-- +- (6.75) Depth: 5/12 00:00:00 28kN 1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qc1+ Kd4 4.Rb4+ Kd5 5.Qd2+ Ke5 6.Qg5+ +- (15.09) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 52kN 1...Kb2! +- (15.06) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 61kN 1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qa1+ Kd2 4.Qa2+ Kd1 5.Rb1+ Qc1 6.Qa4+ +- (10.56) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 70kN 1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc2 3.Qb1+ Kd2 4.Qa2+ +- (10.56) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 151kN 1...Kb2-- +- (10.87) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 180kN 1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc2 3.Qb1+ Kd2 4.Rd8+ Kc3 5.Rc8+ Kd4 6.Qd1+ +- (15.19) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1003kN 1...Kb2-- +- (15.50) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1735kN 1...Kb2 2.Qd1 Qe4 3.Qc1+ Kb3 4.Rb8+ Qb4 5.Qb1+ Kc3 6.Qxb4+ +- (15.91) Depth: 8/22 00:00:02 4025kN 1...Kb2-- +- (16.22) Depth: 9/21 00:00:02 5583kN 1...Kb2 2.Qb5+ Qb3 3.Qe5+ Kb1 4.Qe1+ Ka2 5.Qa5+ Qa3 +- (#7) Depth: 9/24 00:00:03 9514kN 1...Qe4! +- (#8) Depth: 9/24 00:00:08 24514kN (, 11.10.2005) > >>I will clip the analysis copy the game present Diagrams..You are denying >>what Chessbase is all about. > >What is it that they are all about then? > >>>I suppose you could consider alpha/beta as a variant of mini/max (but that's >>>like calling Andy Green's "Thrust SSC" a fast bicycle.) >>> >>>Any engine that uses pure mini/max is going to be unfathomably lame. >>>Even engines using pure alpha/beta will get the stuffings stomped out of them by >>>pruning engines. >>> >>>The ChessBase engines do not use mini/max or even pure alpha/beta. Where ever >>>you got your information from was wrong. Even if it was from the ChessBase web >>>site it is wrong. >> >>No It's from Chessbase 7.0 Manual. > >I have chessbase. I doubt if the writers were drunk at the time. Can you give >me the page number? > >> If Amir Ban, Frans Morsch, Mark Uniacke, Christophe Theron, >>>and SMK all came to you personally, promised that they use nothing but mini/max >>>on a written document and signed it with their own blood -- it's still wrong. >>> >>>>So the "Apples & Oranges" now are just the difference between the Top >>>>Commercial Programs and the others. >>>>I find it very intersting that some of the 'lesser' Engines are really >>>>kicking Butt! Congrats to all! Keep it up... >>>>A Swift Kick only hurts for a little while.. >>>>;) >>>>Chan >> Do us all a favor Dann. >>Please ask/write/phone/E-mail, whatever method you prefer. >>Ask Chessbase about this. >>Would you do that for us? > >Will I ask a science teacher if air is more dense than osmium? >There is nothing I can imagine that would be a greater waste of time. > >>Thank You, >>Chan
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