Author: chandler yergin
Date: 18:04:09 10/11/05
Go up one level in this thread
On October 11, 2005 at 20:56:05, Dann Corbit wrote: >On October 11, 2005 at 20:27:33, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>On October 11, 2005 at 20:16:38, chandler yergin wrote: >> >>>On October 11, 2005 at 20:07:20, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>On October 11, 2005 at 20:02:19, chandler yergin wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 11, 2005 at 19:43:16, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 11, 2005 at 17:46:02, chandler yergin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>I apologize if I have offended anyone. >>>>>>>A case of "Apples & Oranges" again.. >>>>>>>Misunderstandings.. >>>>>>>Stephen, and a few others here, know I seldom voice "Opinions"; >>>>>>>I Post facts.. >>>>>>>That way... if someone differs from the Post, they should attack the Fact, >>>>>>>not the Poster. >>>>>>>It doesn't always work that way... >>>>>>>Everything I have Posted about Computer Chess Programs..I gave the Link >>>>>>>Everything else I have Posted about Engines, Analysis Modules, is directly >>>>>>>from the Chessbase Manual. It therefore refers to the Top Commercial >>>>>>>Programs only.. Fritz, & Shredder >>>>>>>Many of you that Program your own Engines 'tweak' them as you desire, >>>>>>>and have a lot of fun. >>>>>>>Players mostly use the Top Commercial Programs to assist in their play >>>>>>>and improve their expertise. >>>>>>>Thanks to a recent Post by Dan H. some of the confusion has been cleared up. >>>>>>>Chessbase does use Mini/Max and so does indeed search every legal move >>>>>>>for every position. >>>>>> >>>>>>There is absolutely, postively no way on God's green earth that ChessBase is >>>>>>using mini/max to search anything. >>>>> >>>>>Why do you say that? Fritz gets to over 15 ply almost instantly. >>>> >>>>Then either they are computing with Tachyons or they are not using mini/max. >>>> >>>>>>We would see a branching factor of around 20 and a 15 ply search would take >>>>>>years to finish. >>>>> >>>>>Please let's settle this. Give me a FEN for any Position >>>>>OK? >>>> >>>>[D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - >>>> >>>>Here are the correct node counts by ply: >>>>Depth Perft value Database Verified? >>>>1 20 Verified OK! >>>>2 400 Verified OK! >>>>3 8902 Verified OK! >>>>4 197281 Verified OK! >>>>5 4865609 Verified OK! >>>>6 119060324 Verified OK! >>>>7 3195901860 Verified OK! >>>>8 84998978956 Verified OK! >>>>9 2439530234167 download (Access) Verified OK! >>>>10 69352859712417 download (Access) Verified OK! >>>>11 2097651003696806 download (Access) Not verified >>> >>>Well here's a real position, one Vincent's hard ones. >>>2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>>New game, >>>[D]2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>> >>>Analysis by Fritz 5.32: >>> >>>1...h3-- >>> +- (6.22) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 >>>1...Qg3! >>> +- (5.69) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>>1...Qg3! >>> +- (5.69) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>>1...Qg3-- >>> +- (6.12) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 >>>1...Qg3 2.Qb1+ Ka4 3.Ra8# >>> +- (#2) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 >>>1...Kb2! >>> +- (15.75) Depth: 2/8 00:00:00 >>>1...Kb2 2.Qf6+ Ka2 3.Qxh4 >>> +- (6.12) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 1kN >>>1...Ka2! >>> +- (6.09) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 1kN >>>1...Qe4! >>> +- (6.06) Depth: 2/9 00:00:00 2kN >>>1...Qe4-- >>> +- (6.37) Depth: 3/9 00:00:00 3kN >>>1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 >>> +- (6.44) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 4kN >>>1...Ka2! >>> +- (6.41) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 8kN >>>1...Kb2! >>> +- (6.37) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 10kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Qb5+ Qb3 3.Qe2+ >>> +- (6.28) Depth: 3/11 00:00:00 11kN >>>1...Kb2-- >>> +- (6.66) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 15kN >>>1...Kb2 >>> +- (6.66) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 18kN >>>1...Qe4! >>> +- (6.62) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 24kN >>>1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qc1+ >>> +- (6.44) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00 24kN >>>1...Qe4-- >>> +- (6.75) Depth: 5/12 00:00:00 28kN >>>1...Qe4 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qc1+ Kd4 4.Rb4+ Kd5 5.Qd2+ Ke5 6.Qg5+ >>> +- (15.09) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 52kN >>>1...Kb2! >>> +- (15.06) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 61kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc3 3.Qa1+ Kd2 4.Qa2+ Kd1 5.Rb1+ Qc1 6.Qa4+ >>> +- (10.56) Depth: 5/15 00:00:00 70kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc2 3.Qb1+ Kd2 4.Qa2+ >>> +- (10.56) Depth: 6/17 00:00:00 151kN >>>1...Kb2-- >> >>At depth 6, the minimax tree has 398,319,124 nodes in it -- not 151,000. >> >>> +- (10.87) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 180kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Rb8+ Kc2 3.Qb1+ Kd2 4.Rd8+ Kc3 5.Rc8+ Kd4 6.Qd1+ >>> +- (15.19) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 1003kN >>>1...Kb2-- >>> +- (15.50) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 1735kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Qd1 Qe4 3.Qc1+ Kb3 4.Rb8+ Qb4 5.Qb1+ Kc3 6.Qxb4+ >>> +- (15.91) Depth: 8/22 00:00:02 4025kN >>>1...Kb2-- >>> +- (16.22) Depth: 9/21 00:00:02 5583kN >>>1...Kb2 2.Qb5+ Qb3 3.Qe5+ Kb1 4.Qe1+ Ka2 5.Qa5+ Qa3 >>> +- (#7) Depth: 9/24 00:00:03 9514kN >>>1...Qe4! >>> +- (#8) Depth: 9/24 00:00:08 24514kN >>> >>>(, 11.10.2005) >>E:\crafty\release>Crafty-1920.exe >> >>Initializing multiple threads. >>System is SMP, not NUMA. >>EPD Kit revision date: 1996.04.21 >>unable to open book file [./books.bin]. >>hash table memory = 48M bytes. >>pawn hash table memory = 6M bytes. >>EGTB cache memory = 32M bytes. >>draw score set to 0.00 pawns. >>choose from book moves randomly (using weights.) >>choose from 5 best moves. >>book learning enabled >>result learning enabled >>position learning enabled >>resign after 5 consecutive moves with score < -9. >>5 piece tablebase files found >>13980kb of RAM used for TB indices and decompression tables >> >>Crafty v19.20 (1 cpus) >> >>White(1): new >>White(1): post >>White(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >> puzzling over a move to ponder. >> depth time score variation (1) >>Black(1): Kb2 [pondering] >>Hint: Kb2 >> clearing hash tables >> time surplus 0.00 time limit 30.00 (3:30) >> depth time score variation (1) >> 8 1.23 Mat08 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 >> 5. Qa3+ Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 >> 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 8 32752 123 1745870 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 5. Qa3+ >>Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 8-> 3.37 Mat08 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 >> 5. Qa3+ Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 >> 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 8 32752 337 2982614 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 5. Qa3+ >>Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 9 3.79 Mat08 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 >> 5. Qa3+ Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 >> 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 9 32752 379 3261904 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 5. Qa3+ >>Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 9-> 10.40 Mat08 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 >> 5. Qa3+ Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 >> 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >> 9 32752 1040 9584141 2. Qd1 Qe4 3. Qc1+ Kb3 4. Rc3+ Ka4 5. Qa3+ >>Kb5 6. Rc5+ Kb6 7. Qa5+ Kb7 8. Rc7+ Kb8 9. Qa7# >>easy 10 10.42 1/35? 2. Qd1 >>Black(1): easy >>pondering disabled. >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 1 >>total moves=29 time=0.00 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 2 >>total moves=897 time=0.00 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 3 >>total moves=19619 time=0.00 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 4 >>total moves=613468 time=0.08 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 5 >>total moves=12686150 time=2.25 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 6 >>total moves=398319124 time=62.39 >>Black(1): setboard 2R5/8/8/8/7p/1k2q3/6P1/5Q1K b - - 0 1 >>Black(1): perft 7 > >Ply 7 finished: >Black(1): perft 7 >total moves=8104332052 time=1499.53 >Black(1): > >If after 7 plys from the position you supplied, you notice that the engine has >searched 8,104,332,052 positions -- we know two things. >1. That engine is using the mini/max algorithm. >2. The author is not a good chess programmer. But that was Crafty was it not? What do you deduce from Fritz?
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