Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 16:55:12 10/17/05
Go up one level in this thread
On October 17, 2005 at 19:52:01, Uri Blass wrote: >On October 17, 2005 at 19:48:06, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>On October 17, 2005 at 19:31:17, Marc-Olivier Moisan-Plante wrote: >> >>>On October 17, 2005 at 18:47:08, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>I think that the onus to claim the draw is upon the one in an inferior position. >>>> >>>>From: >>>>http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101 >>>> >>>>We have this: >>>>"5.2 The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king >>>>is not in check. The game is said to end in `stalemate`. This immediately ends >>>>the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal. >>>> >>>>The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can >>>>checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said >>>>to end in a `dead position`. This immediately ends the game, provided that the >>>>move producing the position was legal. >>>> >>>>The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game. This >>>>immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1) >>>> >>>>The game may be drawn if any identical position is about to appear or has >>>>appeared on the chessboard at least three times. (See Article 9.2) >>>> >>>>The game may be drawn if each player has made at least the last 50 consecutive >>>>moves without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. (See Article >>>>9.3)" >>>> >>>>And then this: >>>>"Article 9: The drawn game >>>>9.1 A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on >>>>the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent`s clock. >>>>An offer at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.5 must be >>>>considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer >>>>cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it >>>>orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing >>>>it, or the game is concluded in some other way. >>>> >>>>The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with a >>>>symbol (See Appendix E13). >>>> >>>>A claim of a draw under 9.2, 9.3 or 10.2 shall be considered to be an offer of a >>>>draw. >>>> >>>>9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when >>>>the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition >>>>of moves) >>>> >>>>is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares >>>>to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or >>>> >>>>has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move. >>>> >>>>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the >>>>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the >>>>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. >>>>Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant >>>>can no longer in this manner be captured or if the right to castle has been >>>>changed temporarily or permanently. >>>> >>>>9.3 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if >>>> >>>>he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention >>>>to make this move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by >>>>each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or >>>> >>>>the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement >>>>of any pawn and without any capture. >>>> >>>>9.4 If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the >>>>right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move. >>>> >>>>9.5 If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, he shall immediately >>>>stop both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his claim. >>>> >>>>If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn. >>>> >>>>If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three minutes to >>>>the opponent`s remaining time. Additionally, if the claimant has more than two >>>>minutes on his clock the arbiter shall deduct half of the claimant`s remaining >>>>time up to a maximum of three minutes. If the claimant has more than one minute, >>>>but less than two minutes, his remaining time shall be one minute. If the >>>>claimant has less than one minute, the arbiter shall make no adjustment to the >>>>claimant`s clock. Then the game shall continue and the intended move must be >>>>made. >>>> >>>>9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot >>>>occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. >>>>This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position >>>>was legal." >>>> >>>>I think that the most salient part is: >>>>"9.4 If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the >>>>right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move." >>>> >>>>It seems clear enough that if the draw is not claimed, you can still win the >>>>game. >>> >>> >>>Yes and actually the widely cited theorem by Zermelo, which states >>>(approximatively) that chess could be solved in theory by the minmax algorithm >>>because it is a finite game of perfect information, doesn't apply to chess. >>>According to the actual FIDE rules, chess is potentially an infinite game and >>>even from a theoretical point of view one cannot solve it backward. >> >>The theorem assumes optimal play (e.g both players are trying their best). If >>they cooperate to lengthen the game, then it can become infinitely long. >> >>However, if both players are trying to either win or draw if that is their best >>opportunity, then the maximum length is less than 6000 full moves. > >It is possible that both program believe that they have advantage so they prefer >not to claim draw by the 50 move rule and in this case the game can be clearly >more than 6000 full moves. > >I think that this should not be allowed and there should be a rule that the >programs have to claim a draw by the 50 move rule in case that it is a draw by >the 50 move rule. I do not think we should worry about that problem until it happens. Up until now, there has never been a game with as many as 1000 full moves. So it does not make sense to worry about games with more than 6000. It is possible for two programs to both imagine advantage and for it to occur. But realistically, it's not going to happen or we would have seen it already.
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