Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 19:06:30 10/17/05
Go up one level in this thread
On October 17, 2005 at 21:07:48, Marc-Olivier Moisan-Plante wrote: >On October 17, 2005 at 19:48:06, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>On October 17, 2005 at 19:31:17, Marc-Olivier Moisan-Plante wrote: >> >>>On October 17, 2005 at 18:47:08, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>I think that the onus to claim the draw is upon the one in an inferior position. >>>> >>>>From: >>>>http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101 >>>> >>>>We have this: >>>>"5.2 The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and his king >>>>is not in check. The game is said to end in `stalemate`. This immediately ends >>>>the game, provided that the move producing the stalemate position was legal. >>>> >>>>The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can >>>>checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said >>>>to end in a `dead position`. This immediately ends the game, provided that the >>>>move producing the position was legal. >>>> >>>>The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the game. This >>>>immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1) >>>> >>>>The game may be drawn if any identical position is about to appear or has >>>>appeared on the chessboard at least three times. (See Article 9.2) >>>> >>>>The game may be drawn if each player has made at least the last 50 consecutive >>>>moves without the movement of any pawn and without any capture. (See Article >>>>9.3)" >>>> >>>>And then this: >>>>"Article 9: The drawn game >>>>9.1 A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on >>>>the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent`s clock. >>>>An offer at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.5 must be >>>>considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer >>>>cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it >>>>orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing >>>>it, or the game is concluded in some other way. >>>> >>>>The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with a >>>>symbol (See Appendix E13). >>>> >>>>A claim of a draw under 9.2, 9.3 or 10.2 shall be considered to be an offer of a >>>>draw. >>>> >>>>9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when >>>>the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition >>>>of moves) >>>> >>>>is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares >>>>to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or >>>> >>>>has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move. >>>> >>>>Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the >>>>move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the >>>>possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. >>>>Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant >>>>can no longer in this manner be captured or if the right to castle has been >>>>changed temporarily or permanently. >>>> >>>>9.3 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if >>>> >>>>he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention >>>>to make this move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by >>>>each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or >>>> >>>>the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement >>>>of any pawn and without any capture. >>>> >>>>9.4 If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the >>>>right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move. >>>> >>>>9.5 If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, he shall immediately >>>>stop both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his claim. >>>> >>>>If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn. >>>> >>>>If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three minutes to >>>>the opponent`s remaining time. Additionally, if the claimant has more than two >>>>minutes on his clock the arbiter shall deduct half of the claimant`s remaining >>>>time up to a maximum of three minutes. If the claimant has more than one minute, >>>>but less than two minutes, his remaining time shall be one minute. If the >>>>claimant has less than one minute, the arbiter shall make no adjustment to the >>>>claimant`s clock. Then the game shall continue and the intended move must be >>>>made. >>>> >>>>9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot >>>>occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. >>>>This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position >>>>was legal." >>>> >>>>I think that the most salient part is: >>>>"9.4 If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the >>>>right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move." >>>> >>>>It seems clear enough that if the draw is not claimed, you can still win the >>>>game. >>> >>> >>>Yes and actually the widely cited theorem by Zermelo, which states >>>(approximatively) that chess could be solved in theory by the minmax algorithm >>>because it is a finite game of perfect information, doesn't apply to chess. >>>According to the actual FIDE rules, chess is potentially an infinite game and >>>even from a theoretical point of view one cannot solve it backward. >> >>The theorem assumes optimal play (e.g both players are trying their best). If >>they cooperate to lengthen the game, then it can become infinitely long. >> >>However, if both players are trying to either win or draw if that is their best >>opportunity, then the maximum length is less than 6000 full moves. > > >It is optimal to play on if you cannot lose; no cooperation is needed to get an >infinite game. If you know you cannot win a position against optimal play it is >because you solved chess using another theorem than Zemerlo's. > >By any chance, do you remember the reference about your second paragraph? I'm >curious about it. It contains what is perhaps an unwarranted assumption: That the players know the game is drawn when it is drawn.
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