Computer Chess Club Archives

Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases?

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 06:34:42 10/22/05

On October 22, 2005 at 08:08:47, Günther Simon wrote:

>This position really happened in one of my RWBC games today
>and it revealed a bug in a program. 6 men say it is a win.
>(Shredder Oracle : M27 with best play)
>I am not sure though, if there are programs, which are able
>to win this without tablebases at all? (in reasonable time ;)
>
>Guenther
>
>[D]4r3/8/8/8/8/6bk/7p/3R3K b - - 0 76

I doubt if there are programs that can find it without tablebases at reasonable
time because I expect KRB vs KR to be prune based on no threat but
Yace with 5 piece tablebases agree with shredder  Oracle

New game, 4320'/1
4r3/8/8/8/8/6bk/7p/3R3K b - - 0 1

Analysis by Yace 0.99.87:

1...Re2
  -+  (-5.73)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
1...Re2
  -+  (-5.73)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rd3
  -+  (-5.69)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rd3
  -+  (-5.69)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2
  -+  (-5.83)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2
  -+  (-5.83)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2 3.Rc3
  -+  (-5.80)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2 3.Rc3
  -+  (-5.80)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2 3.Rf1 Be5
  -+  (-5.91)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Rg2 3.Rf1 Be5
  -+  (-5.91)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rd1 Bf2 4.Rd3+ Bg3
  -+  (-5.78)   Depth: 6/8   00:00:00  3kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rd1 Bf2 4.Rd3+ Bg3
  -+  (-5.78)   Depth: 6/12   00:00:00  4kN
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rc3+ Kg4 4.Rg3+ Kf5 5.Rg5+ Ke6 6.Rh5 Ke7
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 7/12   00:00:00  10kN
1...Re2 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rc3+ Kg4 4.Rg3+ Kf5 5.Rg5+ Ke6 6.Rh5 Ke7
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 7/16   00:00:00  11kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Bf2 3.Rd1 Be3 4.Rf1 Kg4 5.Rf4+ Kg3 6.Rf7
  -+  (-5.77)   Depth: 8/16   00:00:00  23kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Bf2 3.Rd1 Be3 4.Rf1 Kg4 5.Rf4+ Kg3 6.Rf7
  -+  (-5.77)   Depth: 8/18   00:00:00  25kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:00  29kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 9/18   00:00:00  36kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 10/18   00:00:00  38kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 10/18   00:00:00  49kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rd1 Kg4 6.Re1 Rd2
  -+  (-5.89)   Depth: 11/18   00:00:00  58kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rd1 Kg4 6.Re1 Rd2
  -+  (-5.89)   Depth: 11/19   00:00:00  76kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rd1 Kg3 6.Rc1 Rg2 7.Rf1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 12/19   00:00:01  91kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rd1 Kg3 6.Rc1 Rg2 7.Rf1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 12/20   00:00:01  114kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rc1 Kg3 6.Rc3+ Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg5
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 13/20   00:00:01  146kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Bf4 5.Rc1 Kg3 6.Rc3+ Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg5
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 13/24   00:00:01  203kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg5 8.Rc5+ Kg4
9.Rg5+ Kf3 10.Rg3+ Ke4 11.Re3+ Kd4 12.Rd3+ Kc5
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 14/24   00:00:02  247kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg5 8.Rc5+ Kg4
9.Rg5+ Kf3 10.Rg3+ Ke4 11.Re3+ Kd4 12.Rd3+ Kc5
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 14/26   00:00:02  333kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg3 8.Rc3+ Kh4
9.Rh3+ Kg4 10.Rg3+ Kf5 11.Rg5+ Ke4 12.Re5+ Kd4 13.Re4+ Kc5
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 15/26   00:00:03  551kN
1...Re4 2.Rf1 Kg4 3.Rc1 Rf4 4.Rb1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:05  1018kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:05  1157kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg3 8.Rc3+ Kh4
9.Rh3+ Kg4 10.Rg3+ Kf5 11.Rg5+ Ke4 12.Re5+ Kd4 13.Re4+ Kc5
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:05  1157kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg3 8.Rc3+ Kh4
9.Rh3+ Kg4 10.Rg3+ Kf5 11.Rg5+ Ke4 12.Re5+ Kd4 13.Re4+ Kc5
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 15/30   00:00:06  1189kN
1...Re2 2.Rf1 Rg2 3.Rc1 Rf2 4.Re1 Kg4 5.Re4+ Bf4 6.Re1 Kh4 7.Rc1 Kg3 8.Rc3+ Kh4
9.Rh3+ Kg5 10.Rh5+ Kf6 11.Rf5+ Ke7 12.Re5+ Kd6 13.Rd5+ Kc6 14.Rc5+ Kb7 15.Rb5+
Kc7 16.Rb7+ Kd6 17.Rd7+
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 16/30   00:00:06  1358kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4 3.Rf1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 16/30   00:00:06  1366kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 16/30   00:00:06  1564kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 16/30   00:00:06  1674kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4 3.Rf1 Rd4 4.Rc1 Rf4 5.Rb1 Rf2 6.Ra1 Be5 7.Ra4+ Kf5 8.Ra1 Bd4
9.Re1 Rc2 10.Re7
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 17/34   00:00:08  2390kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Kg4 3.Rf1 Rd4 4.Rc1 Rf4 5.Rb1 Rf2 6.Ra1 Be5 7.Ra4+ Kf5 8.Ra1 Bd4
9.Re1 Rc2 10.Re7
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 17/34   00:00:08  2756kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 18/34   00:00:10  4027kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1
  -+  (-5.86)   Depth: 18/34   00:00:10  4306kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc3 16.Rc5+ Kb4 17.Rc1
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 19/34   00:00:11  5078kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc3 16.Rc5+ Kb4 17.Rc1
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 19/34   00:00:13  6030kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc3
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 20/34   00:00:14  6651kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc3
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 20/34   00:00:15  7778kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc4 16.Rd3
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 21/34   00:00:16  9075kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Bf4 3.Rf1 Kg4 4.Ra1 Re2 5.Rf1 Re3 6.Ra1 Rf3 7.Rd1 Rf2 8.Re1 Kh4
9.Rc1 Kg3 10.Rc3+ Kh4 11.Rh3+ Kg4 12.Rg3+ Kf5 13.Rg5+ Ke4 14.Re5+ Kd4 15.Rd5+
Kc4 16.Rd3
  -+  (-5.85)   Depth: 21/34   00:00:18  10943kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Rd4 3.Rf1 Bf4 4.Re1
  -+  (-6.25)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:40  30877kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1
  -+  (-7.25)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:40  30921kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Rd4 3.Rf1 Bf4 4.Rb1 Kg4 5.Rf1 Be3 6.Re1 Kf3 7.Rf1+ Kg3 8.Ra1 Kf2
9.Ra2+ Kf3 10.Re2
  -+  (-12.25)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:41  31653kN
1...Re4 2.Rc1 Rd4 3.Rf1 Bf4 4.Rb1 Kg3 5.Rb3+ Kg4 6.Rb1 Be3 7.Re1 Kf3 8.Rf1+ Kg3
9.Re1 Kf2 10.Rb1 Ra4 11.Rb2+ Kf3 12.Ra2 Rb4 13.Rb2 Rd4 14.Rb1 Rg4 15.Rb7 Rg1+
16.Kxh2 Rg5 17.Rf7+
  -+  (-13.22)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:46  38089kN
1...Bf4 2.Rf1
  -+  (-13.23)   Depth: 22/44   00:00:49  41473kN
1...Bf4 2.Rf1 Kg4 3.Rb1 Rc8 4.Rf1 Be3 5.Kxh2 Rd8 6.Kg2 Rd2+ 7.Kh1 Bf2 8.Kg2 Bg3+
9.Kg1 Re2 10.Rd1 Bf4 11.Rd3 Be3+ 12.Kf1 Kf3 13.Rd7 Rh2 14.Rf7+ Bf4 15.Rg7 Rc2
16.Re7 Rb2 17.Re8
  -+  (-#27)   Depth: 22/51   00:29:39  2527052kN

(,  22.10.2005)

Uri

Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Günther Simon 08:05:21 10/22/05
- Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Uri Blass 21:23:06 10/22/05
  - Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Uri Blass 21:28:43 10/22/05
- Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Dieter Buerssner 08:35:31 10/22/05
  - Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Günther Simon 09:03:58 10/22/05
    - Re: Are there programs which can win this without tablebases? Dieter Buerssner 09:32:13 10/22/05

This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.